OPEN FORUM

Do you have something on your mind?  Do you need answers to lingering questions?  Or do you just need a place to engage with other people?  The new “Forum” page will serve as a place for visitors to make comments, start new discussions not related to any of the blog posts, make suggestions or just hang out.  If you want to participate, please abide by the following rules:   

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328 thoughts on “OPEN FORUM

      1. stewjo004

        The topic was Trinity or Tawheed. Muhammad Hijab called David Wood out because of his videos about Islam. Muhammad Hijab is being criticized for “bullying” David Wood during the debate. Right now I’ve only watched the openings.

        I think:
        1. David Wood made a good point that Muhammad Hijab didn’t discuss Tawheed that much in his opening.The modification I would have done was spent 7- 10 minutes explaining Ar Ruboobiyah, Al Asma wa Sifat and Ibadah. Then went on the offense against the Trinity.

        2. He used a lot of technical language that the average Christian wouldn’t understand. For example, none of them know who the Early Church Fathers are, the Hypostatic Union, etc.

        Other than that, not a bad opening he attacked most Trinitarian evidence I just think those points above would’ve added more polish.

        However because for some reason I’ve seen some people thinking David Wood won this point this one article I read gave an easy to understand rebuttal. Wood quotes this ayat to justify his shirk:

        ““It’s He who sends his Salawat on you, and so does His angels, in order to lead you out of the depths of darkness into the light, and He is Forever Merciful towards the believers.” (33:43)” (33:56)

        So Wood argued “Salawat” means prayer so how can Allah pray for the Prophet(saw)? This is a magical word called “context”. Obviously, a word can take on a different meaning depending on what its talking about in the sentence. Here’s an example in English:

        The space of the car was huge.
        The car went into space.

        In the above example, there are two similar words, “car” and “space”, but they have two completely different meanings. The meaning of “car” is the same, buts “space”, although it’s the same word, due to its context, it has a different meaning which makes it “relative”.The word ‘Salah’ has a “relational’ meaning”, depending on the noun it’s used on. While it does mean “prayer” when referring to any of Allah’s creations, when its used in relation to Allah, it has a different meaning.

        Wood also committed a classical exegetical fallacy and a logical fallacy. The exegetical fallacy would be the, “Reading Between the Lines Fallacy”, as Christian Professor William D. Barrick explains:

        This fallacy falls into the category of logical fallacies that Carson discusses in Exegetical Fallacies. The unwarranted associative fallacy “occurs when a word or phrase triggers off an associated idea, concept, or experience that bears no close relation to the text at hand, yet is used to interpret the text. (“Exegetical Fallacies“, Prof. William D. Barrick pg.21)

        https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj19a.pdf

        Liked by 2 people

  1. stewjo004

    @ QB

    I guess we’re going to have to bust out the old article on the subject again. Since I have no desire to argue with someone like Sam because I know I will break down into insults and the dawah won’t be for Allah, let me give you the counters to his “arguments” to justify the murdering of women and children:

    1. Baqarah and Yusha’s(as) campaigns
    First Baqarah or the hadith quoted never states that Allah ordered the killing of women and children. Please have him point that out to you where it states that in the passages.

    Regarding his argument that “this is never condemned in the Qur’an”, it actually is:

    5:32. This is why I mandated on the Children of Israel that if anyone kills another person, unless it’s retaliation for murder or for the person causing evil in the land, it’s as if they killed all of humanity. And if anyone saves a life it’s as if they saved all of humanity. But even after My Messengers came to them in succession with clear directions and proof, the majority of them continued to GO OVERBOARD THROUGHOUT THE EARTH.

    “Ibn ‘Abbās said [that the above is meant] in the sense of violating and protecting its [a soul’s] sanctity [respectively]. Our messengers have already come to them, that is, to the Children of Israel, with clear proofs, miracles, but after that many of them still commit excesses in the land, overstepping the bounds through disbelief, KILLING and the like”

    https://www.altafsir.com/Books/Al_Jalalain_Eng.pdf

    This is why Muslims are forbidden to kill indiscriminately
    Sulaiman bin Buraidah reported on his father’s authority The Prophet(ﷺ) said “Fight in the name of Allaah and in the path of Allaah and with him who disbelieves in Allaah fight and do not be treacherous and do not be dishonest about booty and do not deface (in killing) and do not kill a child.” (Abu Dawood Sahih)

    ‘Abd Allaah bin (mas’ud) said “A woman was found slain in one of the battles of the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ). The Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) forbade to kill women and children. (Sunan Abi Dawud 2668) Sahih by Al Abani
    https://sunnah.com/abudawud/15

    “According to a report narrated by al-Bayhaqi in as-Sunan al-Kubra (17934): “Do not kill children or women or old men.”
    https://islamqa.info/en/248850

    Oh you who believe, be careful when you go to fight in God’s cause…differentiate between friend and foe, and remember that God always knows what you are up to. (4:94)

    So we know what the Jews are saying is wrong. Now that we got this point out the way:

    2. Children go to heaven in Islam:

    From your article:
    https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/08/19/horrible-christian-answers-will-babies-and-children-burn-in-hell-answer-i-dont-know/

    “…the tall man you saw in the garden is (Prophet) Abraham, and the children around him are those who died upon Al-Fitrah (the Islamic Faith of Monotheism).”‘ The narrator added: Some Muslims asked the Prophet (ﷺ) , “O Messenger of Allah! What about the children of Al-Mushrikun (i.e., polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad (ﷺ))?” The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, “And also the children of Al-Mushrikun…”

    https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/18

    Regarding the ahadith he quoted. This did cause a difference of opinion among the scholars however the scholars who stated that children go to heaven reconciled this by saying this was before their status was revealed to him. So he remained quiet on the subject.

    The quote from Bukhari about raids is out of its context. This has nothing to do with children’s status in the afterlife, the Prophet(saw) is saying that if an enemy is being raided there is no sin if a civilian is accidentally killed. For example, say a SWAT team is clearing a house to rescue hostages. But in the midst of the chaos a bullet goes through a wall and hits an innocent. There is no sin on that person because that was not their intent to harm.

    So now we don’t believe in genocide and that children don’t go to Hell. This will be important in a sec.

    3. Allah’s punishment, Salih(as) and Khidr
    Moving on, regarding his argument about Allah’s punishment we never argued Allah never causes the death of women and children so his analogy is faulty. There is a difference between Allah using a natural or supernatural event to destroy a rebellious nation and ordering regular men to stab, club and slit the throats of unarmed and surrendering women and children.

    The history of Tabari is not a reliable source. Sam knows this already. Notice Tabari doesn’t even quote a chain to this narration and this is not binding on us. Imam Tabari was simply gathering sources and ordering them in his history book even if he doesn’t believe in them.

    Regarding Khidr this was actually a mercy and wisdom on 2 fronts :
    1. The boy was rescued from Hell by dying young.
    2. The parents were rescued from Hell because if he grew up Khidr says:
    “The young boy had parents who were believers, and so, fearing he would force them to WICKEDNESS and DISBELIEF, we’d intended that their Lord will give them another child who is more pure, closer to mercy and who keeps their family ties in his place.” (18:80-81)
    3. The parents were rewarded for their patience. As noted on blogging theology no one will care what happened to them in this life on the Day of Judgement.

    Finally, what does any of this have to do with Christian theology?

    Like

    1. Lol, Sammy has to write his long rants to distract from his own embarrassments. I’m going use a rope a dope and just kind of play around with him. Some people you just can’t reach, so you might as well make fun of them so that others can see what a joke they are.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. stewjo004

    @ Qb

    Oh, it’s definitely a machine gun tactic, I was just saying that so that people don’t believe what Sam is writing, Ken currently believes that Sam has proven that Islam endorses this but as shown this is simply incorrect.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. stewjo004

      @ QB

      No problem that’s why I posted it. I just have no desire to engage with Sam id don’t know what it is about him but for some reason, his kufr really just angers me.

      Also, I enjoyed your ever so colorful add-ons. BTW nice hadith from ibn Abbas(ra).

      Liked by 1 person

  3. stewjo004

    Sigh

    I mean not even in a like defaming way. But I really do believe Sam has a learning disability because some of his arguments are just irrational. Like at least James White( who I have nothing but contempt) at least tries to be intellectual. Down the line:

    1. Baqarah and Baal worship?
    2:210. Are they all waiting for God to descend to them in the shadows of the clouds, with the angels? The matter would’ve been decided by then. And all matters are brought back to God.

    Allah is not saying He lives in the clouds, He is making the point of how much would they need to see from Allah to believe in Him. This is known in logic as Reductio ad absurdum
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

    Also to refute his argument ibn kathirs there is another reading of the verse in a different Qiraat (accent):
    Do they then wait for anything other than that God should come to them and also the angels over the shadows of the clouds? This is similar to Allah’s other statement:

    On the Day when the sky will be ripped apart with its clouds; and the angels will descend in a grand continuous stream through it, that Day, the true kingdom is for the Most Merciful, and it will be a hard day for the disbelievers. (25:25-26)

    Next Sam is wrong this ayat was revealed about hypocrites (i.e. pagans)

    First, you can tell from the context:

    2:204. There are among men those whose speech, in the worldly life, attracts you. They’ll even make God their witness over what’s in their heart, yet they’re of the most argumentative of opponents, who refuse to listen.
    2:205. Once they turn back, they work throughout the earth spreading corruption and disorder, killing crops and children. God does not like corruption or disorder.
    2:206. And when it’s said to him: “Fear God!” Their pride in the sin takes a hold of them. So Hell is enough to embrace them, how terrible a bed to rest on.
    2:207. While at the same time there are other people who would sell themselves in order to please God. And God’s Most Understanding of what His servants go through.
    2:208. Oh you who have believed! Enter into Islam sincerely and do not follow the footsteps of Satan ˹because˺ he is your sworn enemy.
    2:209. If you slip even after the clearest proofs have come to you in particular then know that God is the Final Authority and the One Who Passes Judgement.
    2:210. Are they all waiting for God to descend to them in the shadows of the clouds, with the angels? The matter would’ve been decided by then. And all matters are brought back to God.
    2:211. Ask the children of Israel how many signs I had given them. Whoever would replace God’s favor even after it came to them then have no doubts God is severe in taking retribution.
    2:212. It’s only those who’ve chosen disbelief that the worldly life has been made alluring for and they make fun of those who believe. But those who are god-fearing will be above them on the Day of Standing; because it’s God Who provides for whoever He wants without limits.

    Allah is basically saying to the hypocrites go ask those Jew guys what happened to them. Remember they’re allies to one another against the Muslims so there’s also some sarcasm.

    Next from tafsir:

    As-Suddi said that these Ayat were revealed about Al-Akhnas bin Shariq Ath-Thaqafi who came to Allah’s Messenger and announced his Islam although his heart concealed otherwise.

    Ibn `Abbas narrated that these Ayat were revealed about some of the hypocrites who criticized Khubayb and his companions who were killed during the Raji` incident. Thereafter, Allah sent down His condemnation of the hypocrites and His praise for Khubayb and his companions:

    It was also said that they refer to the hypocrites and the believers in general. This is the opinion of Qatadah, Mujahid, Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and several others, and it is correct.

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=206

    This is what happens when someone is arrogant. As the Bible says:

    When pride comes, disgrace follows, but with humility comes wisdom. (Proverbs 11:2)

    2. His “challenge” to quote where does Allah say he doesn’t ride clouds
    This is illogical, he has to prove his claim to the meaning of the verse. However to humor him right here:

    112:4. “And there is nothing that can be compared to Him…”

    Meaning He does not look like anything He’s created.

    3. Thunder, praise and punishment

    Let’s look at the verse together:
    13:12. It’s He who shows you lightning, inspiring both fear and hope. He lifts up the heavy clouds,
    13:13. and thunder itself declares His praise, as do the angels in awe of Him. He sends thunderbolts to strike down whoever He wishes, but still they debate about God even though He is intense when He executes His attacks.

    Is he denying that God is Lord over this creation? But hey let’s see what the Bible says about lightning (sigh):

    7Praise the LORD from the earth, all great sea creatures and ocean depths, 8lightning and hail, snow and clouds, powerful wind fulfilling His word, 9mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars,10wild animals and all cattle, crawling creatures and flying birds,11kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all rulers of the earth, 12young men and maidens, old and young together. (Psalm 148: 7-12)

    So the author asks lightning to praise God with him. But wait there’s more:

    Sing for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done this; shout aloud, O depths of the earth. Break out into singing, O mountains, you forests and all your trees. For the LORD has redeemed Jacob, and revealed His glory in Israel. (Isaiah 44:23)

    Let the heavens be glad, and the earth rejoice; let them say among the nations, ‘The LORD reigns!’ (
    1 Chronicles 16:31)

    Break forth in joy, sing together, O ruins of Jerusalem, for the LORD has comforted His people; He has redeemed Jerusalem. (Isaiah 52:9)

    Well what about punishment?
    14The LORD thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded. 15He shot His arrows and scattered the foes; He hurled lightning and routed them. (2 Samuel 22:14-15)

    Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out your arrows, and destroy them. (Psalm 144:6)

    Finally, I thought you would enjoy:

    “The thunder and lightning frighten me;
    my heart pounds in my chest.
    2 Listen to God’s thundering voice!
    Listen to the sound coming from his mouth.
    3 He sends his lightning to flash across the whole sky.
    It lights up the earth from one end to the other.
    4 After the flashes of lightning you can hear his roaring voice.
    He thunders with his wonderful voice!
    And while his voice thunders, the lightning flashes continue.
    5 God’s thundering voice is amazing! (Job 37:1-5)

    He wants to debate about religion but doesn’t even know his own. Now, what’s his response about the “Ancient of Days”?

    Liked by 1 person

      1. stewjo004

        I thought if you really want to be entertained, I didn’t add this because I didn’t want to make my post longer Psalm 148:7 is about dragons lol:

        Praise the LORD from the earth, you dragons, and all deeps:
        https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/148-7.htm

        Then the commentary is really trying to keep a straight face:

        ye dragons, and all deeps; either land dragons, or rather sea dragons, the water or sea being the proper place of them, Psalm 44:19; these, as cruel, as poisonous, and pernicious as they are, are made to honour and praise the Lord (Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible)

        7-10. The call on the earth, as opposed to heaven, includes seas or depths, whose inhabitants the dragon, as one of the largest (on leviathan, see on [636]Ps 104:26), is selected to represent. The most destructive and ungovernable agents of inanimate nature are introduced. (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)

        Either,

        1. Dragons and serpents, which abide in the deep caverns and holes of the earth; or,

        2. Whales or other sea-monsters, which dwell in the depths of the sea, which are oft called by this name

        So according to the Bible, this is based on a true story:

        Liked by 1 person

  4. stewjo004

    This post is in response to the visitor PK’s question:
    “I wanted to ask how you can accept the quran as the word of God when I see a self contradiction between muslims who claim that the bible has been corrupted, when the quran claims that it has not been corrupted. Eg Surah 3:3-4 and 4.136 speak of Allah’s bookS and the scripture He revealed before the quran. And allah says to muhammad “if you were in doubt about the new revelations, ask those who were reading the scripture before you” (surah 10.94) so the bible cannot be corrupted otherwise allah would not have referred to it as “light and guidance” that can help Muhammad’s doubts. Thus if the bible is true, then the quran is false, because it contradicts the truth. But if the bible is false, then the quran is false, because the quran says that the bible is true.
    So I see a contradiction here. How do you get around this, apart from saying ‘only some parts of the bible have been corrupted’ ??”

    Let’s first look at the verses you quoted together:

    3:1. A.L.M.
    3:2. God, there is no god but He, the Ever Living source of Life ˹and˺ Caretaker of existence.
    3:3. He’s gradually sent the Scripture down to you, with Truth, verifying what’s come before it. He sent the Torah and Gospel down,
    3:4. previously as guidance to the people and has now revealed the Standard. As for those who are set in disbelieving God’s revelations there’s an intense punishment for them ˹because˺ God is the Final Authority and capable of taking vengeance.

    4:136. Oh you who believe, truly believe in God, His Messenger, the Scripture that He gradually sent down upon His Messenger and the Scriptures which He sent down before all at once. Whoever ignores this and disbelieves in God, His angels, His books, His Messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far, far astray.

    So as you noted, we as Muslims believe once upon a time ago God sent previous Scriptures. However the Qur’an very clear on their corruption.

    After going through moments of Jewish history where they disobey God and Moses(as) God asks the Prophet:

    2:75. Now do you ˹really˺ hope that a people such as this will believe in you, when some of them used to hear God’s words and then change or twist it, even though they understood them?
    2:76. When they meet those who believe, they say: “We’ve believed!” But when they’re alone in secret, ˹they˺ say: “Are you telling them about what God has ˹revealed to us previously˺, so that they can make a case against you, with your Lord? Don’t you have any type of common sense or understanding?”
    2:77. Do they not understand that God knows what they’re hiding and what they’re showing?
    2:78. Among them as well are the ‘illiterate’ ones who don’t know the Scripture except for wishful thinking. They’re only making guesses and assuming.
    2:79. May damnation be unleashed on those who write the Scripture with their own hands, then say: “This is from God,” in order to sell it for a worthless price. May damnation be on them for what their hands have written and may damnation be on them for what they’re earning.

    To begin the “illiterate” part is a play on words about the laymen who don’t understand the Scripture and just talk, not about actually being illiterate. This shows the lack of reading comprehension of the person in the article and again them ironically fulfilling what the verse says lol.

    At this point I would like to take a moment to see what some Companions(i.e. “Disciples”) of the Prophet’s opinions about this subject were:

    Narrated ‘Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah:

    `Abdullah bin `Abbas said, “O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, ‘This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won’t the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur’an ) which has been revealed to you.

    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/148

    Ad-Dahhak said that Ibn `Abbas commented,
    (Woe to them), “Means the torment will be theirs because of the lies that they wrote with their own hands,

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=355

    Qutaadah said: “The phrase ‘then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it’ refers to the Jews, who used to hear the words of Allah, then they altered it after they had understood what it meant.”
    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/2001/corruption-of-the-tawraat-torah-and-injeel-gospel

    So boom the matters clear at this point but let’s go the extra mile:

    5:13. But they broke their promise, so I cursed them and made their hearts hard. They changed the words from their original places and have forgotten a huge piece of what they were told to remember, so you will continue to find treachery against you or cheats from a few of them. Overlook this and forgive them because God loves those who excel in doing good.
    5:14. I had also took a Covenant from those who say: “We’re Christians,” but they too forgot part of what they were told to remember. So I released animosity and hatred among themselves until the Day of Judgement, when God will tell them what they used to manufacture.
    5:15. People of the Scripture! My Messenger has come to you; clarifying what you used to keep hidden of the Scripture and who overlooks much ˹of what you changed˺. A light has now come to you from God, along with a Scripture making things clear,
    5:16. which God uses to guide to the ways of peace, all who are looking to follow what pleases Him. Leading them from their various shades of darkness into the Light, by His will, and onto one straight path.

    The overlooks much is referring to what they changed of the Scripture hence the “a light has come to you and a Scripture to make all these lies clear”. Again from Ibn Kathir(rh):

    “So the Prophet explained where they altered, distorted, changed and lied about Allah. He also ignored much of what they changed, since it would not bring about any benefit if it was explained.”

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=798&Itemid=60

    6:91. They did not value God as he deserves to be valued when they said: “God hasn’t revealed to a human being anything.” Ask them: “Who was it then who sent down the Scripture, which Moses brought as a light and guide to the people, which you separated and made into these scrolls, showing some but making sure to hide many? And now you’ve taught something which neither you nor your fathers knew.” ˹Help them out and˺ say: “God…” and then leave them there amusing themselves and running their mouths with useless talk.

    Again what is the meaning to this clear verse? From Ibn Kathir(rh):

    “you made the Tawrah into separate sheets which you copied from the original and altered, changed and distorted as you wished. You then said, “this is from Allah,” meaning it is in the revealed Book of Allah, when in fact, it is not from Allah.”

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=989&Itemid=61

    Liked by 1 person

    1. stewjo004

      With that being said let’s now look at the context of the verse asked about:
      10:93. I settled the Children of Israel in a proper place to live, as well as provided them with pure and good things. It was only after knowledge had come to them that they began to argue among themselves. But your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their disagreements…
      10:94. If you are in any doubt about what I have sent down to you, ask those who have been reading the Scriptures before you. The Truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not become among those who fell into doubts.
      10:95. And do not lie against God’s revelations because then you will become one those who have lost.
      10:96. Those who your Lord’s Word has passed on will not believe,
      10:97. even if every sign comes to them, until they see the agonizing torment.

      There are two major views concerning this verse and one minority position:

      1. Indirectly talking to the pagans (my preferred view as Imam Razi and Ustadha Taimiyyah Zubair)

      There is a difference of opinion as to who is being addressed in the verse the (Oh Muhammad) is not actually in the verse and that’s the translator’s interpretation. Imam Razi(rh) commenting on this verse (with a rough translation from me):

      “The commentators differed as to who the person being addressed in the verse was. Some said it was the Prophet(saw) while some have stated it was others… “

      He then quotes his evidence that the Prophet(saw) is not being referred to in the verse:

      “What indicates the validity of the position I have mentioned is that in the last verses of this chapter (it says):

      10:104. Tell them: “People! If you are still in DOUBT about my religion…”

      The people first mentioned (in the hypothetical question in verse 94) are now mentioned in this verse. Secondly, (from a common sense perspective) if the Prophet(saw) was in doubt of his own prophethood what was to stop others from having more reason to doubt his prophethood and this requires (all) laws of the Sharia to be voided. Thirdly, if he is in doubt about his prophethood why would asking (the Christians and Jews) remove that doubt when they are disbelievers, and it was declared what remains with them of the Torah and Gospel (is corrupt)?”

      https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=4&tSoraNo=10&tAyahNo=94&tDisplay=yes&Page=1&Size=1&LanguageId=1

      He then explains what is happening in Arabic but since you won’t understand the metaphor he gives (as it’s archaic) I’m going to explain it in modern terms.

      Throughout the Qur’an God for the most part except in the case of a few exceptions does not address the pagans directly because of His King status and it’s beneath Him to talk to such low ranks. So he uses a literary device of disassociation by talking to the Prophet(saw) while talking to the pagans. For example, if I am a teacher and one student passed the test in my class I say to that student “Didn’t you think this test was so easy, I don’t know how anybody could fail it.” The students who failed know I’m referring to them. This is the same case here, this entire chapter is talking to the pagans of Mecca and appealing to their reasoning God narrates the stories of Noah, Moses and Jonah. God then indirectly addresses the pagans at the end of the verse to ask the Christians and Jews about Noah/ Moses and the Pharaoh hence the end of the verse

      “…The Truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not become of those who fell into doubts, and do not lie against God’s revelations because then you will become one those who have lost.” (10:94-95)

      Ustadha Taimiyyah Zubair has a similar opinion.
      http://tafsir.io/10/94

      And there are many Qur’an verses like this such as:

      2. This verse is referring to specific persons and not a general statement. (Imam Tabari(rh) and Imam Suyuti’s(rh) position and Imam Razi mentioned this as well)

      The evidence for this position is they quote the verse:

      46:9. Tell them: “I am not something new among God’s Messengers, nor do I know what will be done with you or I. I only follow what’s revealed to me, ˹and˺ My duty is only to clearly warn you.”
      46:10. Ask them: “Have you thought about this? What if the Qur’an was from God, and you reject it, even though a witness from among the Children of Israel has already testified to something similar, and believed while you were too arrogant?” God doesn’t guide the people that do evil.

      These verses are telling people t Abdullah ibn Salam(ra) or Salman Al Farsi(ra) who were scholars of Judaism or Christianity about their splitting into sects,the truth of Islam and the Prophet(saw). Further proof of this position can be established because its agreed they are being referred to in this verse:

      3:113. However they are not all the same; there are some among the People of the Scripture who are upstanding, reciting God’s verses during the the night hours and bowing in prayer.
      3:114. They believe in God and the Last Day, encourage what is right, stop what is wrong and hurry to do good. And they are in the ranks of the righteous.
      3:115. Whatever good they do will never be rejected from them. God knows full well those who are truly god fearing

      Imam Tabari commenting on this verse says: “God says to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that if you are in doubt about the truthfulness of what We told you in Revelations – that the children of Israel had not differed concerning your prophet hood before you were sent by God as an Apostle to His people, for they found you prophesied in their scripture, and they knew you from the description of you given in the Torah and Injil – you must confer with those who read the sacred book before you, that is, the people of the Torah and the people of the Gospel, SUCH AS Abdullah Ibn Salam and those who, like him, were honest and had faith in you: do not ask those who are dishonest or are unbelievers.”

      https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=10&tAyahNo=94&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1

      3. Muslims are to ask the righteous Sahaba who were Christian and Jewish about the truth of Islam.(a minority position)

      The third position is that the Muslims (being referred to in the indirect way) are to asks those like Abdullah ibn Salam(ra) and Salman al Farsi(ra) to the truth they’ve hear so far. Similar evidence to the above. The only add on is this is to strengthen faith like Abraham(as) asked God to show him a miracle.

      Anyways the point is there is NO scholar who favors this interpretation of asking Pastor Rick about Islam(and I even tried looking for some minority opinion).

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Pk

      Hey sorry for the late reply!

      You said:
      So as [Pk] noted, we as Muslims believe once upon a time ago God sent previous Scriptures. However the Qur’an very clear on their corruption.

      – How can you say that Allah’s scripture has been corrupted? Can a corrupt book be the word of God? Obviously not. So if the bible is a corrupt book, then 4.136 is wrong because it says the bible is the word of God…

      2:75. Now do you ˹really˺ hope that a people such as this will believe in you, when some of them used to hear God’s words and then change or twist it, even though they understood them?

      This only creates another contradiction because surah 6.115 says the words of God cannot be changed

      Narrated ‘Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah:

      `Abdullah bin `Abbas said, “O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted?

      Directly contradicts Surah 5.43/44 – “But how do they come to you for decision while THEY HAVE the Taurat (Torah), in which IS the (plain) Decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers.”

      So the Torah hasn’t been corrupted according to this verse and according to the following hadith –
      Sunan Abu Dawud 4449:
      “Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believe in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.”

      Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, ‘This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it.

      Again I would say this goes against surah 6.114-115 (words of God cannot be changed) and 7.157 (Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel) – if it was corrupted, why would allah say you can find muhammad mentioned in it?
      And of course it also goes against 10.94 “If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have read the scripture before thee”
      This, like many other verses, indicates that the scripture before the quran is the word of God and thus is athouritative. Which contradicts what you’re are telling me that it’s not from God, its corrupt and thus not a valid scripture.

      You said that 10.94 may not be addressed to Muhammad, I think it is because that’s how most translate this ayat and the fact that Muhammad is the one that received the new revelations. But either way it’s addressed to a Muslim.

      Thirdly, if he is in doubt about his prophethood why would asking (the Christians and Jews) remove that doubt when they are disbelievers, and it was declared what remains with them of the Torah and Gospel (is corrupt)?”

      Directly contradicts surah 5.69 (Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians – whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right – shall have nothing to fear or regret) which says christians and jews are believers

      As for the corruption of the gospel why does your religion teach that “the followers of the Gospel should judged by what Allah revealed has in it; and whoever does not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.” (surah 5.47) does allah want us to judge by a corrupt book?

      Muslims are to ask the righteous Sahaba who were Christian and Jewish about the truth of Islam.(a minority position)

      So which one is it; are christians righteous or unrighteous? Are they believers or do they have to fear being condemned?

      Like

      1. stewjo004

        Before we continue I would like to thank you PK for not resulting in childish insults and clearly articulating your points. It’s a rare thing and I think it produces much more fruitful conversation even if the two sides disagree with one another. At the end of the day everyone here just wants to worship God in the manner that He’s most pleased with. So again thank you for that. Now onto your points

        1. God’s Word and corruption
        Yes you’re absolutely correct once someone alters something God said it’s no longer His. For example let’s pretend God said this:

        “You are all to pray 5x a day”

        And then someone alters to:

        “You are all to pray 2x a day”

        The second sentence even though only 1 character has been edited is not from God as He never said that. Now in the same way if you make a contract with someone and they change their contract does that affect the status of the original? Of course not in a court of law you would simply prove what the original was. God still has His original books He sent to mankind with Him in what is known as “the Preserved Tablet”. On the Day of Judgement the Scriptures and the prophets they were sent with will be brought out and testify for and against the people. So these originals don’t exist on Earth anymore. The context of the other verses about none can change God’s Word is not referring to His Scriptures. Common sense says I can go take a Qur’an and go cross out a verse. God calls His Decree “the Word” in the Qur’an, (because He only says One Word) here are some examples::

        36:69. I have not given him knowledge of poetry, nor is it befitting for him to have been a poet. This is nothing but a Reminder and a clear recital,
        36:70. to warn whoever is alive, and justify the Word against the disbelievers.

        46:18. Such people are the ones who the Word has come true on, along with all the nations, both Jinn and human, that went before them. They’re forever failures.

        32:12. If only you could see the guilty when they will be standing before their Lord with heads hanging in shame saying: “Our Lord, we’ve seen and heard, please send us back so that we can do good, we’re now completely convinced…”
        32:13. And when I respond: “If I had wished, I could’ve given every soul its true guidance, but the Word from Me has come true, that I will fill Hell with demons and men together.”

        23:27. And so I revealed to him: “Build the Ark under My watchful eyes and according to how I reveal it. When My command comes and the pot boils over, take on board two of every kind, along with your family, except for those whom the Word has been passed on. And do not plead with me for those who have done evil, they will be drowned.”

        There are way more but I’m sure you get the point. The verses quoted about God’s words not being changed are in context about the Decree.

        2. The statement of the Prophet(saw) and the Torah/ Companions

        First off I would personally take the opinions of people who were there telling me something as opposed to a person 1,400 years later saying another. But let’s first establish what’s a contradiction. A contradiction is when 2 things can’t exist at the same time in the same context. For example:

        Jim was shot
        Jim was stabbed

        Neither statements makes the other impossible to have occurred. Jim was shot and stabbed. What would make a contradiction is:

        Jim died in the afternoon
        Jim died 12 at night

        One situation makes the other impossible.

        With the verses you quoted neither makes the other impossible.

        Regarding the Prophet’s(saw) statement about the Torah here is the hadith:
        https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/99

        Now there’s actually a difference of opinion regarding this hadith’s authenticity and it was specifically that line you emphasized but for the sake of discussion we’ll say it’s authentic.

        The statement of the Prophet(saw) does not say the Torah is uncorrupted. EVERY Muslim respects the Scriptures and must believe they were sent. God says:

        4:136. …Whoever …disbelieves in God, His angels, His Scriptures, His Messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far, far astray.

        You’ll also notice in the hadith that there is a part missing which explains the context of “judging by the Gospel” etc. So let’s first get some background before we talk about the verses:

        “It was reported that this part of the Ayah was revealed about some Jews who committed murder and who said to each other, “Let us ask Muhammad to judge between us, and if he decides that we pay the blood money, accept his judgement. If he decides on capital punishment, do not accept his judgement.”
        http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=776&Itemid=60

        So we see the Jews were attempting a trick, to get out of God’s laws (as their prone to do).

        Then the court case:

        https://sunnah.com/muslim/29/43

        After this incident the following was revealed:

        5:41. Messenger, don’t become sad over those who race to surpass one another in disbelief. The same ones who say with their mouths: “We believe,” but who really have no faith in their hearts, or the Jews who listen eagerly to any lies. Listening to those who haven’t even met you and are twisting the meanings of words from their context saying to each other: “If you’re given this ruling, accept it, but if you’re not, then be careful…” Those whom God wishes to test, you will be powerless on their behalf before God, ˹because˺ these are the same ones whose hearts God doesn’t intend to cleanse. It’s a disgrace in the lowly life for them, and then a heavy punishment in the Next.
        5:42. They listen eagerly to lies and eat from bribes. If they come to you for judgement, you can either judge between them, or decline. If you decline, they will not be able to hurt you in any way, but if you do judge between them, judge fairly because God loves the just.
        5:43. But why are they coming to you for a judgement ˹anyways˺ when they have the Torah which contains God’s judgement, and they then turn away and ignore it? It’s because they’re not really believers.
        5:44. I revealed the Torah with guidance and Light. The prophets, who all submitted to God, based their judgement according to it for the Jews. And so did the rabbis and scholars in accordance with that part of God’s Scripture which they were trusted to preserve, to which they themselves were witnesses. So don’t fear people, only fear Me. Do not sell My revelations for a small price because those who don’t judge according to what God has sent down are disbelievers.
        5:45. I had prescribed a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and a wound for a wound for them. However if anyone gives up this right out of charity, it will serve as atonement for their sins. Those who don’t judge according to what God has sent down are doing a serious wrong.

        Pausing for a moment here for some key parts:
        The “Why are they coming to you when they have the Torah which contains God’s judgement” is regarding stoning for adultery as the ruling is the same. Also notice God said:

        “…The prophets, who all submitted to God, based their judgement according to it for the Jews. And so did the rabbis and scholars in accordance with that PART of God’s Scripture which they were trusted to preserve…” So their complaining about him(saw) ruling for stoning is unfounded. Moving on:

        5:46. I sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming what came before him in the Torah. I gave him the Gospel, which contained guidance and Light within it, verifying what was revealed previously in the Torah, as a guide and lesson for those who take heed of God.
        5:47. So let the followers of the Gospel judge by the laws that God has sent down within it, because whoever doesn’t judge by what God has sent down are rebellious and disobedient.

        Alright here comes the important part:

        5:48. I have sent this Book to you with a purpose and the Truth, verifying the Scriptures that came before it, and it is a witness and Safeguarder to forever dominate over them, so judge between them according to what God has sent down. Do not follow their empty whims and desires, which deviate from the Truth that has come to you. I have assigned a law and a path for you all, and if God had desired, He could’ve made you one community, but He wanted to test you through what He’s given you. So race to do good, you will all return to God and He will make it clear to you about the matters which you argued about.
        5:49. Do they want judgement according to the age of ignorance? Is there any judge better than God for those with firm faith?
        5:50. Decide between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their whims or desires. Be careful so that they don’t tempt you away from any of what God has revealed to you. If they turn away and ignore this, remember that God intends to punish them for some of the sins they have committed, because many people are defiant.

        The point of this section is the Jews were trying to cherry pick God’s laws and God is saying all the judgements He revealed in the Torah and Gospel are retained in the Qur’an. Hence why He says the Qur’an: “verifies those Scriptures that came before it, and it is a witness and Safegurder to forever dominate over them, so judge according to what God sent down”.

        This punishment for adultery that they were trying to circumvent still exists. If Jews and Christians want to follow Moses(as) and Jesus(as) follow the Qur’an that has now been revealed.
        http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=768&Itemid=60

        Further proof for this is in the other verse you quoted which I’ll get to in a sec shortly.

        3. Qur’an 10:94 and 5:69
        To begin how people translate things is irrelevant . As someone who does translation from time to time I take many liberties to make a sentence make sense in English. And there are ayat where God addresses Muslims like sent down to you” for example:

        2:231. When you’ve divorced women and they’ve fulfilled their waiting period, then either keep them in honor, or let them go with honor. Do not take them back just to hurt them, ˹because˺ whoever does that, he has no doubt wronged his own soul. And do not take God’s revelations as a joke. Remember the favor God has given you alongside the Scripture and wisdom which He sent down to teach you. Fear God and know that His knowledge embraces everything.

        Other examples off the top of my head include 5:59, 3:84, 2:136

        Moving on to 5:69 again a clear reason why translation is interpretation let’s first look at context then breakdown the verse:

        As a background, this verse addresses groups of people who believe that if they are ‘labeled’ with a particular label, it will get them into Heaven. This verse has been used in a certain way (that is totally misguided): That whoever is a Muslim, Christian, Jew, etc; believes in God and Judgement etc, can enter Heaven. No need to believe in the Prophet! You’re good to go. Just be a good Christian; Muslim; or Jew, and you’ll enter Heaven.

        First of all, this does not make sense. Was the problem with the Children of Israel not believing in God? No. It was about killing/disobeying the prophets.

        Let’s look deeper into the verse. God is opening the invitation to the whole of humanity when He begins with
        “those who have believed” – it is an open ended invitation and anyone can join in. Next, God says ‘hadoo’ – not ‘yahood’ which is the standard meaning for Jews. Hadoo means is “those who return”, and the second thing it refers to is “Jews”. So actually, God is saying those Jews who return to God (i.e follow the Qur’an).
        https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/roots/ha-Waw-Dal.html

        Next Nasarah not the common term used for Christians. The word could be related to Nazareth (i.e Jesus of Nazareth) or “the Helpers” (i.e. they helped Jesus(as) . So this word used here is the original reference to the followers of Jesus Christ. Just like the word used for Jews, two things are captured in the meaning.

        It is very important to understand these verses in the context of points of view. If God points to a group of people who say they believe; and declare that no, they do not believe, then God’s point of view is taken to be final. Similarly, the Christians who God mentions in this verse are those who God has defined in His Book to be true Christians. For example, in one verse God says:

        “Those who say: “God is the third in a trinity,” have certainly disbelieved, as there is no god except One God. If they do not stop the blasphemy they’re saying, a painful punishment will befall those of them who continue in this disbelief.” (5:73)

        The above verse says that if someone says God the third of three, then that is not a definition of a true Christian in God’s eyes.

        The “good” in the “they did good deeds” part of this verse is important. It not only refers to the righteous deeds themselves, but also HOW and WHY they are done.

        Sabaeans. Not much clarity among scholars on the meaning of this word. The most we can infer is that this group was known in the time of the Prophet. Some scholars believed that these people were sort of people of the book. Some say they were followers of John(as). One of the most interesting things about this group is the word used for them means “converts”. The Quraish called the Muslims “sabi’” because they left their religion and followed Islam. The broad meaning is that these are those people who are disenfranchised with mainstream religion and seek other more satisfying religion.

        Finally ibn Abbas(ra) said another verse was revealed next. So a more accurate translation of this verse combined with the next verse revealed is.

        5:68. Tell them plainly: “People of the Scripture, your entire foundation is worthless and you have no basis to stand on until you adhere to what is actually in the Torah, Gospel and what is now being revealed by your Lord.” But have no doubts, what has been sent down to you from your Lord will increase many of them in their arrogance and defiance. So don’t become sad over disbelieving people.
        5:69. For indeed, those who believed, ˹and˺ those who were Hebrew, spiritual or Nazarenes, who believed in God and the Last Day; and did good will have no cause for fear or regret.

        3:85. Whoever follows another religion or way of life other than Islam, it will never be accepted from them. They will be one of the failures in the Next Life.

        So these real Jews, Christians etc. are Muslims (people who submitted to God) not these people walking around saying crazy stuff about God.

        4. Prophet foretold in Torah and Gospel
        First the context of 7:158 is the original Torah revealed to Moses(as):

        7:154. When Moses calmed down and his anger left him, he picked up the tablets, which on its inscriptions were guidance and mercy for those who were really fearful of their Lord.
        7:155. Moses chose from his people seventy men for their meeting with Me when a violent earthquake seized them. Moses said: “Oh Lord, if You had wanted you would’ve destroyed them way before this as well as me. Are you destroying us because of what the idiots among us did? This is nothing but Your test and through it, You mislead and You guide whomever you want! You are our Protective Friend so forgive us and show us mercy and never allow us to fall into it again because You are the best of those who can forgive!”
        7:156. “And write good for us in this life as well as the Next because we have lovingly and with full loyalty turned back to you!” I responded: “I target with My punishment whoever I want and My Mercy extends to everything.”
        7:157. “I will give My Special Mercy to those who are god fearing, purifying themselves by giving what is due in charity and truly believes in My revelations.”
        7:158. “Who follow the Messenger, the illiterate prophet they find described in the Torah that is with them, and in the Gospel. He will order them to what is good and forbid to them what is evil. And make allowed for them things that are pure, forbid to them all the things that are filthy and he will take off the chains and burdens around their necks that used to be on them. Those who will believe in him, obey him out of respect and help him, following the light sent down with him are the successful ones…” So now tell them: “People! I am the Messenger of God for you all, sent by the One who owns the kingdom of the heavens and the earth! No one is to be worshipped or obeyed but He. He gives life and He gives death, so believe in God and His Messenger, the prophet which can neither read nor write, who believes in God and His words, and follows them closely, so that you can be considered committed to guidance…”

        So as I’ve written in a previous article Jew had many other books that were Scripture but not include in the Biblical canon for a variety of reasons. Here’s the link to my article where I quote from Dr. Joel Hoffman talking on this subject:
        https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/missing-books-in-the-bible/

        The Problems with Understanding this Verse is:

        1. The Torah and Gospel no longer exist with us in their original forms.
        2. The Quran does not specify which group from amongst the Christians and Jews mention Prophet Muhammad(saw)
        3. The Quran does not mention in which form he is described – is it by name, height, race, faith, geography etc?

        However I personally believe strong cases can be made for Daniel 2:3-45 (also linked with Matthew 21:33-46) John 1:19-25 and maybe Isaiah 42

        5. Asking the Sahaba who were Jew or Christian etc.
        I’m sorry I should have worded my point better. I also made the mistake in assuming you knew who these people were when you obviously would have never heard of them. Abdullah ibn Salam(ra) was the top Rabbi of Medina and Salman al Farsi(ra) was a priest before Islam. They then converted to Islam after testing Muhammad(saw). Here are their stories

        The Rabbi:

        The Priest:

        THESE specific men are who are being referred to if you want to take that interpretation of the verse.

        Annnnndddddd…..breath. Whew.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. Pk

    No, thankyou sir, this shows that christians and muslims can have loving and gracious conversations. Thanks also for taking the time to write so much.
    Hope you get less busy as the year progresses and I pray God that you make unclouded judgments and overcome stress from being busy and we can discuss these issues more in depth.

    And thanks for those youtube links and yes i had no idea who you were reffering to😅 ok so they used to follow the torah and the gospel then they converted to islam.

    Righteous and unrighteous jews or christians or sabeans –

    5.69 “For indeed, those who believed, those who were Hebrew, spiritual or Nazarenes, who believed in God and the Last Day; and did good will have no cause for fear or regret.”

    This i think is a weaker translation because it seems to be judging people’s salvation based on race i.e hebrew or nazarene. I get your point about “God being the third in a trinity” verse those are misled christians but this verse (69) needs to be translated as “jews and followers of the nazarene (i.e christians)” as the majority of qurans translate it, as even Pickthall translated it. So here’s the problem if non muslims (those who dont submit) are unrighteous, then how can it say that jews and christians have nothing to fear? When a jew by definition obeys the torah (which is corrupt according to you) and a christian by definition believes in Jesus Christ who died for thier sins and rose from the dead for their salvation. That is another problem I find.

    Muhammad in the bible –

    However I personally believe strong cases can be made for Daniel 2:3-45 (also linked with Matthew 21:33-46) John 1:19-25 and maybe Isaiah 42

    We can get into whether or not muhammad is there but hes definitely not mentioned by name. Also daniel and isaiah are not part of the torah.

    Surah 6.115 –

    I would agree that it refers to decrees but it also refers to scriptures (thats the context of chapters 5 & 6 specifically) and whatever else He utters and reveals.

    I can agree that the context is about stoning the sexually immoral, however, the surahs (3.3-4 , 4.136 etc) affirm the inspiration, authority and inccoruptible nature of the torah and gospel not just the stoning aspect, but what he has revealed in it.
    So “the followers of the gospel are to judge by what allah has revealed in it” that true you can judge whether or not punishment of stoning should be given but thats not the ONLY thing we can judge.

    5:68. Tell them plainly: “People of the Scripture, your entire foundation is worthless and you have no basis to stand on until you adhere to what is actually in the Torah, Gospel and what is now being revealed by your Lord.” But have no doubts, what has been sent down to you from your Lord will increase many of them in their arrogance and defiance. So don’t become sad over disbelieving people.

    This is the point: you cant believe in “what is now being revealed” i.e the quran, and still believe the bible, because the quran contradicts it. So from over here it looks like allah is telling us to believe in books that contradict each other.

    Look at these verses from my perspective –
    46 the Gospel, which contained guidance and Light within it, verifying what was revealed previously in the Torah, as a guide and lesson for those who take heed of God.
    47 So let the followers of the Gospel judge by the laws that God has sent down within it, because whoever doesn’t judge by what God has sent down are rebellious and disobedient.
    48 I have sent this Book to you with a purpose and the Truth, verifying the Scriptures that came before it, and it is a witness and Safeguarder to forever dominate over them, so judge between them according to what God has sent down.

    – so it says that the Gospel verifies the Torah and the Quran verifes both the gospel and the torah. Which means it affirms the inspiration and authority of the bible. But then it goes on to say that it not only verifies the bible but it is a criterion over it. So I feel that’s a contradiction, is it verifying or judging???
    So here’s my issue, The quran says the bible is true but the bible contradicts the quran. Therefore the quran is false because it contradicts the truth. So there’s the self contradiction im talking about. Thoughts????

    Muhammad and the torah hadith –

    So we see the Jews were attempting a trick, to get out of God’s laws (as their prone to do).

    The quran says something a little different though:
    “Not all of them are alike. Some of the People of the Book are an upright people. They recite the signs (or verses) of God in the night season and they bow down worshipping. They believe in God and the last day. They command what is just, and forbid what is wrong and they hasten in good works, and they are of the righteous.” S. 3:113-114

    Hadiths are probably not reliable since they are about 200yrs after muhammad died but it contains the testimony of Muhammad’s companions and so if we take their word, then we have a contradiction because you would agree that clearly muhammad believed that the torah he possessed was the word of God right?

    Contradictions and allah’s books –

    I agree that a contradiction is “One situation makes the other impossible.” Thats the problem I have with the quran, it says the torah is the word of God, cant be corrupted, it presently contains guidance, light and is profitable for judgment etc the He reveals an ayat which says some jews were appointed to preserve parts of Gods word. But that doesnt rule out that God himself would protect the other parts. That situation is not impossible.
    This comes back to what I was saying earlier, if parts of the book are corrupt then its not the word of God, and if its not the word of God then surah 4:136 is wrong…

    You said –

    God still has His original books He sent to mankind with Him in what is known as “the Preserved Tablet”. On the Day of Judgement the Scriptures and the prophets they were sent with will be brought out and testify for and against the people. So these originals don’t exist on Earth anymore. The context of the other verses about none can change God’s Word is not referring to His Scriptures. Common sense says I can go take a Qur’an and go cross out a verse.

    True, but like you noted the original would still be unchanged and here’s the thing, we have manuscripts that are the same before muhammad and after his death (which raises a quick question: do you know how he died accoriding to your most reliable hadith?)
    But anyway the quran testifies that the jews possessed the torah during the time of muhammad (5.43 “But how do they come to you for decision while THEY HAVE the Torah which contains the Decision of Allah”) and the torah they had (the dead sea scrolls) hasn’t changed since the time of your prophet thus we still have the original!

    You also stated –

    The statement of the Prophet(saw) does not say the Torah is uncorrupted. EVERY Muslim respects the Scriptures and must believe they were sent. God says: 4:136. …Whoever …disbelieves in God, His angels, His Scriptures, His Messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far, far astray.

    But you can’t be a faithful muslim and believe in the scriptureS at the same time. I say this because obviously the bible contradicts the quran, because it says you need Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins and for you to have everlasting life. For all have sinned and are under God’s wrath because of that. Which raises a problem in the islamic view of salvation because you would agree that we’re all sinners??? But here’s the problem, you have no atonement for your sins. And your asking for mercy can’t earn mercy because its like asking a judge to forgive you when he is obligated to punish you. If he forgives, that makes him unjust and your sin goes unpunished. But if he does punish, then you are separated from him and will end up in hell. So the only solution is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We have broken God’s law, that makes us guilty criminals. But Jesus paid our fine. Since he atoned for us, God can forgive us, saves us and give us eternal life. And to receive that you must repent and put your trust in Jesus.
    Right now you’re trusting in your goodness to get you to heaven which is likened to a man jumping out of a plane without a parachute, he’s trusting in his ability to flap his arms fast enough to save himself. You’re doing the same by trusting in your ability to obey, do good deeds and be righteous. So you have to transfer trust from yourself to the Saviour. The instant you do that God will save you and fill you with you peace and joy and hope, he’ll give you a new heart with new desires to love righteousness and live in freedom from sin and shame

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      My apologies for typing so much I’m going o try and cut it back, you were simply asking alot of questions that require explanation.

      1. Salvation based on race
      If it came across that way that wasn’t the intent. However remember in Islamic theology we believe prophets were sent to EVERY nation and people:

      I appointed a Messenger for each nation telling them to worship God and to stay away from forces calling to rebellion. Among them are some God guided and some who misguidance materialized so they deserved to be led astray. Just travel throughout the earth and take a look for yourself. How was the fate of those who denied? (16:36)

      So the matter is not race based but were speaking on the Children of Israel whom all of the prophets in the Bible are for the most part addressed to. The Torah and Gospel were not meant for everyone in this specific case these Scriptures really were only meant for them.

      2. If Jews and Christians follow how are they unrighteous?
      Well for one they’re rejecting a prophet and a Scripture lol. But those who are learned in their Scriptures recognize Islam pretty quickly. For example, when my mother became Muslim she was shocked at all the similarities and how this is what she actually believed but she didnt want to seem weird by telling people she didn’t believe in this or that part of the Bible. Islam really is similar to these religions it just lacks the “weird stuff” in them.

      3. Torah and Muhammad(saw)
      God knows best but from my understanding it depends on context sometimes all the Tanakh is classified as the Torah sometimes it’s not. Then they also count their oral traditions as the Torah. Honestly the Jews are pretty lose with the definition.
      http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

      Also this gets even more complicated once you add targums into the mix (which is what I suspect the Jews of Arabia were using)

      Also remember I said the Qur’an doesn’t mention in what capacity he is mentioned so if by name or description really makes no difference in my opinion. But if you would like to discuss this we can (not now because I don’t want to open up another topic until we close this one if that’s okay with you)

      4. Judging by Gospel/ Torah etc.
      First off yes the Quran endorses the Torah and Gospel as divine (however it still would abrogate them even if they were hypothetically pure today, think Jesus(as) and some of the laws of Moses(as)) I think where confusion is setting in is you keep saying “Bible”. God never revealed the “Bible”. Correct me if I’m wrong but Bible comes from “Biblia” meaning “little books”. These “little books” written by various authors (some known some not) then tell the story of this nation and certain men who interacted with the Divine(i.e God). However let’s look at the Bible from a common sense perspective. I think it’s safe to say we both share the common ground of believing that God sent revelations to Moses(as) and Jesus(as). Cool. Where are these revelations? Obviously Moses(as) was not reading Genesis or his own death and funeral or Joshua’s(as) conquest of the Holy Land to the Jews when they came off Mount Sinai. Where are Jesus’s(as) revelations? As far we know using are available sources we have 1 alleged revelation from God to Jesus(as):
      And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” (Mark 1:11)

      That’s it. Again Jesus(as) wasn’t reading Mark, Matt, Luke and John to the people. Also, God never said he revealed anything to Paul as far as we’re concerned. So how did we end up with more writing from Paul and his students then from Jesus(as) or even the Disciples(ra)? THESE books and teachings are not from God. If you ignore a lot of writings and focus on the little tidbits you have that these prophets are alleged to have said you’ll see Islam there.

      5. Muhammad(saw) and hadith
      This is incorrect hadith were not written 200 years later. It’s too long to get into right now and I planned on making an article but long story short a common mistake people make is that Bukhari(rh) collected hadith out of thin air. He is a late step in hadith history and he CODIFIED hadith. To codify you have to have existing material. Most of Bukhariri is made up of earlier hadith collections.

      Moving on you probably missed this because I typed a lot but that verse 3:113-114 is about the two men who I posted the videos on.

      6. Manuscripts during the time of the Prophet(saw)
      More or less addressed this point about the Bible not being the revelations God sent. However I would also like to note these manuscripts are late as heck and the few early ones that we do have major variations.QB has written on this and he can comment more if you would like examples I can show some as well.

      7. Prophet’s(saw) death
      Pretty good actually. Martyrdom and saying “take me to the highest friend”.

      8. You need Jesus(as) for forgiveness
      That’s where I disagree with you. If this was the case how were people being forgiven for their sins:
      A. Before Jesus(as)?
      B.Who were not in Israel? Like Africa, Europe or the Americas for example?

      Jesus(as) came with and preached believing in God and worshipping Him alone. At the end of the day he is a man (a righteous one and one of the best to walk the earth no doubt) but still a man.

      9. God’s Mercy and Judgement
      Kind of an addon to the previous topic.

      A. Muslims don’t believe we’re saved through our good deeds. We’re like Christians in this regard, the limbs act out what is in the heart. Where we differ on is what is faith. Here is my article where I quote some hadith that are explicit on this subject:
      https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/23/do-muslims-believe-they-can-earn-paradise/

      One of God’s names is Islam is As Samad (The Independent One) He needs no one for anything especially when it come to do administering justice and mercy. We had a discussion similar to this before on the blog. The problem with the scenario is the assumption that justice always involves punishing. Justice, in essence, is settling disagreements between parties fairly. Let’s take for example when Solomon(as) judged between the 2 women who were claiming to be the mother of the baby. Solomon(as) judged correctly who the mother was and returned the baby to its rightful mother. Not torture, no punishment. He simply established justice between these people with wisdom.

      God forgives sins we make against ourselves if He chooses to (for example, drinking alcohol, watching porn etc.) When someone else is harmed He settles the parties disagreement on the Day of Judgement. THAT is true justice. Even by our human standards a good judge looks at each case individually and determines the right outcome. For example, a person who steals someone’s stuff is bad. However, in the same scenario, a person steals food because they were poor and hadn’t eaten in a week. The parameters in these cases are different even though the crime was the same.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Pk

    By Bible I mean Torah + Gospel, which is never defined in the quran but it means Law and Gospel means the good news about Jesus Christ, the perfect sinless man who is the Saviour of the world. Who died and rose again for you to have eternal life.

    I don’t get your argument about the books of the bible being written by prophets? Parts of the quran have prophets speaking and telling the stories of Noah, David, Abraham etc so are those parts not inspired? And it wasn’t Allah writing this stuff down right, it was the companions of muhammad who wrote down your scripture. Which was revealed to your prophet by an angel, not Allah himself, who muhammad thought was a demonic revelation. And here’s the thing when God spoke to every other prophet they knew it was God speaking. That gives muhammad less credibility than Paul in my opinion.

    I think we are writing too long of essays to each other so you’re not seeing my questions. They aren’t rhetorical btw 😅

    Heres two of them that you didnt address –

    1. If parts of a book are corrupt then its not the word of God right? So if the torah and the gospel are not the word of God then we must conclude that surah 4:136 is wrong

    2. The quran says the bible is true, but the bible contradicts the quran. Therefore the quran is false because it contradicts the truth. So there’s the self contradiction im talking about. Thoughts????

    You noted –
    First off yes the Quran endorses the Torah and Gospel as divine (however it still would abrogate them even if they were hypothetically pure today)

    We just went through all the evidence and you even agreed that they are still pure. You just didn’t concede that we have the original which we do because the manuscripts before muhammad are the same as during his life (as it says in Quran 5:43 “But how do they come to you for decision while THEY HAVE the Torah which contains the Decision of Allah” and the manuscripts after Muhammad’s  death are the same, so we must conclude that it hasn’t changed. And it would be abrogated unless allah had said – “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” and if we are not meant to follow the bible because its been abrogated why does allah say – “Let the followers of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it”

    Just quickly on revelations to Jesus –
    We have 1 alleged revelation from God to Jesus(as):And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” (Mark 1:11)

    There’s also John 12:28 “Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again”
    Matt 17:6 on the mount of transfiguration “While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
    And of course the famous Psalm 110.1 “The LORD said unto my Lord ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool'”

    You asked –
    So how did we end up with more writing from Paul and his students then from Jesus(as) or even the Disciples(ra)?

    Because Paul was a pharisees, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a doctor in the Torah, who studied under the feet of Gameliel. So zealous for Judaism that he persecuted followers of the Way unto their death. Then the Lord appeared to him in a vision instructing him as to what he should do instead saying “I will show you how many things you will suffer for my name’s sake. Rise and stand on your feet: for I have appeared unto you for this purpose, to make you a servant and a witness. To open the eyes of the Gentiles, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them who are sanctified by faith in Me.”
    So Paul knew the OT and Jesus “opened his disciple’s minds to understand the Scriptures about him” and God appointed him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles and his letters contains “commandments from the Lord” and the meaning of the OT.

    Manuscripts during the time of the Prophet(saw) More or less addressed this point about the Bible not being the revelations God sent. However I would also like to note these manuscripts are late as heck and the few early ones that we do have major variations.

    The variations are irrelevant because your quran says that the Jews and Christians living at the time of muhammad possessed the inspired word of God –
    3.3 “He revealed the Torah and the Gospel as guidance and light”
    5.43 “But how do they come to you for decision while THEY HAVE the Torah”

    And as you probably know the agnostic textual critic bart ehrman (coolest surname btw) he says that “the manuscript variations do not affect any major christian doctrine”

    Yes some are late of course it was being copied for centuries after the ressurection of Christ, but the NT was finished before 70AD because John says that the Sheep Gate (a section of Solomon’s temple) was standing when he wrote the Gospel according to John.

    Muhammad’s death –
    Prophet’s(saw) death Pretty good actually. Martyrdom and saying “take me to the highest friend”.

    My question about his death was about how it occurred according to your most reliable hadith and if you don’t think that the hadith were written nearly 200 yrs after his death then you must admit that the Torah that muhammad owned was the Word of God because after putting it on the judgment cushion he said to it: “I believe in you and in Him who revealed you”

    I’m not sure where you’re getting the martyrdom quote from??

    But according to Bukhari’s Hadith 3.786 –
    Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, “Shall we kill her?” He said, “No.” I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah’s Apostle.

    Bukhari’s Hadith 4.394 – Narrated Abu Huraira: When Khaibar was conquered, a roasted poisoned sheep was presented to the Prophet as a gift (by Jews)… then he asked, “Will you now tell me the truth if I ask you a question?” They said, “Yes, O Abu Al-Qasim.” He asked, “Have you poisoned this sheep?” They said, “Yes.” He asked, “What made you do so?” They said, “We wanted to know if you were a liar, in which case we would get rid of you, and if you are a prophet then the poison would not harm you.”

    Bukhari’s Hadith 5.713 -Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.”

    – so basically muhammad attacks Khaibar, eats poisoned meat with his companions and gets sick because of that.

    Sahih Muslim volume 3, # 5440 – Aisha reported that when Allah’s Messenger fell ill, he recited over his body Mu’awwidhatan and blew over him and when his sickness was aggravated I used to recite over him and rub him with his hand with the hope that it was more blessed.

    Ibn Sa’d page 265 – The Apostle of Allah fell ill and he i.e. Gabriel, chanted on him, saying, “In the name of Allah I chant on to ward off from you every thing that harms you and (to ward off you) against every envier and from every evil eye and Allah will heal you.”

    – after being poisoned he prays for healing, asking Gabriel and Aisha to supplicate with him.

    But here’s the interesting thing, the reason why the Jews poisoned him was to know “if he was a true prophet” (Sahih al bukhari 4.394)
    Heres the problem with his death, Allah had a similar test for prophethood –
    “And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah), We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta)” (Quran 69:44-46)
    So according to this, Muhammad forged falsities about God and he was killed because of that. So that would make him a false prophet according to your sources right.

    You said about mercy –
    God forgives sins we make against ourselves if He chooses to (for example, drinking alcohol, watching porn etc.) When someone else is harmed He settles the parties disagreement on the Day of Judgement. THAT is true justice. Even by our human standards a good judge looks at each case individually and determines the right outcome. For example, a person who steals someone’s stuff is bad. However, in the same scenario, a person steals food because they were poor and hadn’t eaten in a week. The parameters in these cases are different even though the crime was the same.

    Interesting that you appeal to a corrupt book to make your point about solomon and justice😉
    Totally agree circumstances determine the outcome of the judgment.
    I understand your argument but it collapses because your version of God is unjust and sin is left unpunished.
    Like you said he forgives personal sins if he chooses to. But heres the problem God is merciful so he will choose to forgive you. But God is just, hates sin and loves righteousness so he will choose to discipline you when you disobey. Theres the problem with islam is he going to forgive you for getting drunk or punish you for getting drunk?
    Now when someone else is harmed sure there is justice in the sense of eye for an eye but then that means that God never forgave you on earth because he’s going to punish you after you die. So i would argye that theres no forgiveness there.

    You do need Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins because you’re not good enough to make it to heaven, were all sinners and we all deserve God’s judgment. You have to put your trust in Jesus to get you to heaven.
    People before the Messiah were saved the same way we are: by putting their trust in him.
    Eg John 8:56 Christ said – “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: he saw it, and was glad.”
    Also Malachi 3:1-3 said to the Jews living at Jerusalem at 514 B.C “Suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come… he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver”
    Isaiah put his trust in the coming messiah 53:5 – “He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our sins. The punishment that brought us peace fell upon him and by his stripes we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, we have all turned to our own way, and the LORD has laid all our sins upon him”
    And again in 28:16 – “whoever puts their trust in him will not be ashamed”

    You also need to put your trust in him because you need forgiveness of sins and he’s the only one who atoned for you and is alive and ready to intercede for you. Or else how can you get your sins forgiven?

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      You’re right maybe it might be easier to go one point at a time so we cut down our essays lol. I’m going to just list out your points in your last post and you can pick the one you wish to focus on. Also, I’m sorry I didn’t notice the questions so I can answer those first if you like. Finally, the Solomon(as) and the baby exist in Islam as well it’s a common story we share.

      1. Quran 4:136

      2. Qur’an/ Bible “contradiction”

      3. Revelation

      4. Not every prophet was initially aware

      5. Paul

      6. Ehrman and manuscripts

      7. Gospels authorship

      8. Muhammad’s death

      9. Salvation

      Like

      1. Pk

        Hey yeah I think 1, 2 and 3 are linked but let’s do point 2

        My basic position is: if the Bible is true, then the Quran is false, because it contradicts the truth. But if the bible is false, then the quran is false, because the quran says that the bible is true.

        And I don’t see around the only logical conclusion, that either way islam is wrong.

        Like

    2. you said “we all deserve gods judgement” but then you as a sinner will be put in heaven because someone else (your flesh god) received punishment in your place?

      So you as a sinner who is guaranteed to sin today, tomorrow and in future will be relaxing in heaven coz your “just” god decided to pour your sins on himself? You call this JUST?

      so every time you “repent”
      Just think about how god cant FORGIVE but only punish violently coz sins (even eating apple deserves eternal damnation?)

      dont call god forgiving, call him a god who pre planned his self abuse coz he likes to punish himself. You should not say x is DESERVING when y(ur god) gets satisfaction from punishing himself

      God and adam

      adam eats apple and “just” god says, “sorry mate, you can stuff your repentance , coz nothing you can do will save u now…your faith, your repentance and your deeds can all get stuffed, because of you i will have to tranfer your sins and punish myself coz i am just god.

      then god decides to contradict himself coz he said to the jews REPENTANCE brings life .

      god made EASILY corruptible creation and then tells adam STUFF ur REPENTANCE.

      “And as you probably know the agnostic textual critic bart ehrman (coolest surname btw) he says that “the manuscript variations do not affect any major christian doctrine”

      he says that luke does not view jesus as blood atonement for sins and scribes tried to corrupt luke by theologically adding and changing his text to have it agree with pauline bloody atonement. Ehrman has written a post where he does say that manuscript variation do affect your theology
      ..sam shamoun says that codex vaticanus is FULL of heresey and should be put in GARBAGE .

      Like

  7. stewjo004

    So that we don’t confuse each other let’s start over.

    I think where confusion is setting in is you keep thinking the “Bible” is the “Towrat” and “Injeel”. In Arabic, the Bible is not called the “Injeel” unless missionaries are trying to convert Muslims who don’t know any better. The Bible’s name in Arabic is (alkitab almuqadas) “the holy scriptures” Here’s a comparison:

    The Torah(Moses’s(a) Revelation from God)
    توراة

    The Gospel (Jesus’s(as) Revelation from God)
    الإنجيل

    The Holy Bible (“Greatest hits” book collection of the Christians and Jews with unknown authorship.)
    الكتاب المقدس

    The Bible was not translated into Arabic into much later (like until the 16th century for a full translation) Even when you see Muslim scholars like Ibn Taymiyyah (rh) of the 13th century in his debate with Paul of Antioch he was using some Aramaic Bible and even this thing had verses that are not in the Bible nowadays.

    Anyways the Bible is not what Moses(as) and Jesus(as) were preaching to the people. I’ll give some examples with commentary:

    So the Torah in the Bible is alleged to be it’s first 5 books which are Genesis – Deuteronomy. Let’s look at some passages:

    The first thing is there is consistent use of the third person narrative and footnotes

    Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had married a Cushite woman); and they said, “Has the LORD indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us as well?” And the LORD heard it. (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any man who was on the face of the earth.) Suddenly the LORD said to Moses and Aaron and to Miriam, “You three come out to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. (Numbers 12:1-4)

    “Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.” (Deuteronomy 34:7)

    “Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.” (Deuteronomy 34:10)

    You can also see the problem with phrases like “until this day” which implies a later writer is looking back on events.

    And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

    Clearly, a third person such as a scribe or chronicler wrote these accounts, and not God.

    Just read the last chapter of this claimed Torah on Moses’s (as) death
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+34&version=NIV

    They were all sitting there reading this? Probably not.

    Now let’s look at Jesus’s(as) alleged revelation:

    And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. (Matt 4:23)

    And similar narrations are in Matthew 4:23; 9:35; Luke 4:43; Luke 8:1; and Mark 1:14-15

    From Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers
    (23) Preaching the gospel of the kingdom.—As far as regards St. Matthew this is the first occurrence of the phrase. It tells of a vast amount of unrecorded teaching, varying in form, yet essentially the same—a call to repentance—the good news of a kingdom of heaven not far off—the witness, by act for the most part rather than words, that He was Himself the Head of that kingdom.
    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/4-23.htm

    Now as for the last part “essentially the same” they can’t claim that because they don’t have the teaching.

    Finally, these books admit they did NOT record everything:

    Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

    These books in the Bible were compiled from various written and oral traditions floating around. They contain part of the revelation but are NOT the revelation itself. For OT (see JEDP) for gospels (see Q gospel, two source theory or four source theory).

    The point is we as Muslims believe in the REVELATION. So not the gospel according to so and so. The Gospel of Jesus. Same with the Torah of Moses. I hope this is clear.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Pk

    Maybe you can define what you mean by revelation because you said – These books in the Bible were compiled from various written and oral traditions floating around. They contain part of the revelation but are NOT the revelation itself. So which one is it? Does it contain revelation or is it a revelation?

    Yeah just to quickly clarify on moses.
    Clearly, a third person such as a scribe or chronicler wrote these accounts, and not God.
    thats possible or moses could have been given prophetic insight of future events. Either way requires inspiration from God, so of course its God writing these accounts.

    (Btw the person who alleges that these are authentic revelations is Allah himself)

    Heres the problem the quran never defines the torah, its jewish tradition that says the torah is the pentateuch ok, so we dont know what muhammad meant by torah other than inspired scriptures that the jews believed in. Theres no real detail. Same with the gospel.

    What i think your misunderstanding about revelation is that the prophet doesnt necessarily have to record the events himself. Eye witnesses, whom the prophet has chosen, can record the events as they are inspired to do so. As Christ promised “But the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father he will guide you into all truth and bring to your remembrance all things whatsoever i have said to you.”

    This is even in your own scripture which has an eye witness account of Jesus giving life to clay birds. That wasnt Jesus speaking or writing this stuff down but a third person witness. But you wouldnt say that this part is not inspired.

    John records what God wants you to know, this argument would defeat the quran aswell because not every detail about every single thing that everyone of the prophets did is recorded.

    And keep in mind, its your quran which says that the gospel and torah are inspired, authoritative, preserved and authentic. So there are no errors in it and the criticisms levelled against it necessitate that the quran is wrong. So by you saying that the torah or the gospel is corrupt, you necessarily condemn the quran because it says the torah, psalms and gospel are the word of God which cant be corrupted.

    Dont know if that helps but the point im making is that if parts of torah or gospel or psalms are corrupt then surah 4.136 and the others are wrong because a corrupt book cannot be the word of God

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      First off as I think we both saw Jews are all over the place and don’t clearly define the Torah themselves. And again in their beliefs even though you reject them they have the Oral Torah which is authoritative to them. They brag about the usage of the Oral Torah to disprove false prophets.

      But anyways let’s define revelation:
      There are multiple versions of revelation a prophet can receive I’m just going to list some in no particular order of importance:

      1. A Scripture where God transmits His words verbatim (either through direct speech or through an intermediary such as an angel)
      2. Dreams
      3. An angel relaying a message from God but not necessarily a Scripture or direct speech (ex. “Your Lord has ordered you to go here…”
      4. A prophet’s inspired action or speech regarding a religious matter.
      5.A prophet’s rulings
      6. Prophecies

      Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Now, 2-6 are important and religious binding but they are not what is being discussed. The Torah, Gospel and Quran would be classified as number 1. What the Bible is is a collection of stories containing pieces of 1-6 as well as lies and then being claimed as simply 1 by itself. When the Quran is quoting what is in the Torah and Gospel He is quoting from what was in 1.

      Now regarding Jesus and the birds in the Qur’an no that is not an “eyewitness account” like how you’re thinking where some scribe is writing down what Jesus(as) said. God is telling the tale Himself of what happened. He is quoting their speech so for example if i was talking to my wife:

      “I talked to this guy on Quran and Bible Blog name Pk and he said to me: “What is revelation”? I told him revelation comes in 6 types. Pk said: “Oh okay now I get it…”

      So I’m quoting you while telling the story in the first person to my wife. So when we say the Qur’an is “God’s Word” we don’t mean men inspired by God are writing what is happening we mean this in the literal sense of this is how your Lord speaks.

      For space purposes, I won’t repost my previous points but if you need me too I will. The Qur’an and the Sahaba are clear on the purity of the previous Scriptures and “God’s Word” is referring to His Decree. Got me?

      The Bible’s equivalent is weak hadith that quotes from the Qur’an like this:

      “Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

      The Prophet (ﷺ) was hiding himself in Mecca and used to recite the (Qur’an) in a loud voice. When the pagans heard him they would abuse the Qur’an and the one who brought it, so Allah said to His Prophet: ‘Neither say your prayer aloud, nor say it in a low tone.’ (17.110)
      https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/172

      The 17:110 is the Prophet Muhammad’s(saw) revelation, not this whole hadith. The Qur’an verse revealed here is part of a 111 verse chapter in the The Quran. But now imagine we started quoting this whole hadith as the Qur’an and that basically explains what you guys got going on. Hopefully, this clears the matter up.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Pk

        The Bible is different to Hadiths because the quran doesn’t say that Allah revealed the hadith, but it repeatedly says that He revealed the torah psalms and gospel.

        That’s why you don’t believe that God dictated word for word what the hadith people should write and that’s why you concede that there are historical, scientific and factual inaccuracies and embarrassing stories of Muhammad’s life in the hadiths. For these reason some Shia believe that all the hadiths are corrupt.

        Whereas with the Bible, to say it’s corrupt is to condemn the Quran.

        So I’m quoting you while telling the story in the first person to my wife. So when we say the Qur’an is “God’s Word” we don’t mean men inspired by God are writing what is happening we mean this in the literal sense of this is how your Lord speaks.

        Ok well yeah but the point about the story of clay birds is that, although allah has 2 hands, 2 right hands at that (according to Surah 38.75), muslims do not claim that allah himself wrote the Quran. You claim that He spoke it to muhammad through an angel, and he recpited it to his followers actually wrote some of it down (I say some because it wasnt all preserved according to: Sahih Muslim 3421—Aisha reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur’an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated by five sucklings and Allah’s Apostle died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur’an (and recited by the Muslims).
        But these verses aren’t in the Quran you have today. So what happened to them?
        Sunan ibn Majah 1944 tells us: It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
        So the quran from allah through muhammad that you possess is incomplete)

        But in the same way that allah didnt physically write the quran but its still the authoritative revelation of God, same with the bible.

        When I say inspired I mean God dictated what they should write. 2Timothy 3 puts it this way “all scripture is breathed out by God” so men wrote what God made them write. It’s like me playing a song on the trumpet. The trumpet made the sounds but you wouldnt say the trumpet played a song. Likewise God inspired by breathing out the words that the prophets and apostles wrote.

        For space purposes, I won’t repost my previous points but if you need me too I will. The Qur’an and the Sahaba are clear on the purity of the previous Scriptures and “God’s Word” is referring to His Decree. Got me?

        Allah’s Word in the quran can refers to his decrees, I concede that. But not that only. Because thats how he created the universe (by saying ‘be’). The Word of God is also a title given only to Jesus (even though you apparently don’t “distinguish between prophets” – surah 2.285). And Allah’s wordS is his revelation in the previous scriptures.

        With all respect I think you responded to everything except the corruption of the previous Scriptures. 

        Just on a base level can you tell me 2 things.

        1 – can corrupt scripture be called “God’s scripture” as in 4.136 ??

        2 – Do you agree or disagree that at the time of muhammad, Allah considered the torah gospel and psalms to be reliable scriptures ??

        Like

  9. “Yeah just to quickly clarify on moses.
    Clearly, a third person such as a scribe or chronicler wrote these accounts, and not God.
    thats possible or moses could have been given prophetic insight of future events. Either way requires inspiration from God, so of course its God writing these accounts.”

    Was it moses who said he was humble than any man on earth or was it god who told moses to say this about himself? or was it the scribe who wrote this?

    Was it jesus who declares all foods clean or was it mark who declared all foods clean?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Pk

      Was it moses who said he was humble than any man on earth or was it god who told moses to say this about himself? or was it the scribe who wrote this?

      God, since He’s the only One who could know.

      Was it jesus who declares all foods clean or was it mark who declared all foods clean?

      The Greek interlinear points to it being Jesus, since the words for “thus” and “he declared” are added by the translator.

      Like

  10. Pk

    About the atonement –

    he [Ehrman] says that luke does not view jesus as blood atonement for sins and scribes tried to corrupt luke by theologically adding and changing his text to have it agree with pauline bloody atonement. Ehrman has written a post where he does say that manuscript variation do affect your theology

    Actually Mr Ehrman said the opposite. “Most of the hundreds of thousands of variations are of very little importance for anything, as most people – even specialists – would admit. Only a minority really matter. And none of these seriously threatens any significant, traditional, Christian doctrine.”

    https://ehrmanblog.org/fundamentalists-and-the-variants-in-our-manuscripts/

    Luke has the account of the last supper where Jesus says “this is my blood poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin” – theres your atoning death. And it also records Jesus preaching salvation by faith when he says “the tax collector wouldn’t even look up to heaven but he beat his chest and  said: ‘God have mercy on me a sinner'” And Jesus concludes by saying – “God forgave the tax collector.” 

    The idea that Luke borrowed from Pauline theology is impossible because Luke’s gospel was written before Paul’s letters! Also Paul quoted from Luke’s gospel.

    And why would the Scribes (jews who followed the old testament) need to corrupt luke? Your quran says that the old testament, is the authoritative words of God and the old testament repeatedly says “Christ was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. All of us like sheep have gone astray, we have all turned to our own way, but the LORD has laid all our sins on him”
    – so even if luke was corrupted (which it wasn’t) the old testament says the same thing about Jesus…

    adam eats apple and “just” god says, “sorry mate, you can stuff your repentance , coz nothing you can do will save u now…your faith, your repentance and your deeds can all get stuffed, because of you i will have to tranfer your sins and punish myself coz i am just god.

    then god decides to contradict himself coz he said to the jews REPENTANCE brings life .

    Repentance through atonement brings life. He actually said to the Jews: “the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls”

    Let me just clarify, we don’t believe that Jesus is God the Father, we believe he’s the Son of God.
    So God did not send himself, He sent his Son, the perfect sinless man whom God empowered and did miracles through. He was crucified by wicked and evil people, he was buried, but he didnt stay there because God raised him from the dead, giving him all authority in heaven and on earth.
    God did not punish himself, Jesus gave His life to pay for your salvation.

    You asked the following –
    So you as a sinner who is guaranteed to sin today, tomorrow and in future will be relaxing in heaven coz your “just” god decided to pour your sins on himself? You call this JUST?

    I’m not guaranteed to sin and neither are you, we all have free will.

    so every time you “repent”
    Just think about how god cant FORGIVE but only punish violently coz sins (even eating apple deserves eternal damnation?)

    Apple eating doesn’t deserve eternal damnation. Christians don’t believe that babies are guilty of Adam’s sin.

    Tony you’re correct that it would not be just for God to be unable to forgive unless he punishes someone. That makes no sense. But that’s not what we believe.
    The punishment for our sin is hell. 
    Jesus didn’t go to hell for us.
    So Jesus wasn’t punished for us.

    Jesus wasn’t punished for our sins, he provided an atonement for our sins. It’s like this, God is a judge, you’ve broken the law by sinning that makes you a guilty criminal. But Jesus paid your fine.
    You deserve God’s wrath because you’ve sinned. But through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ you can be forgiven and receive eternal life right now if you transfer trust from your good deeds to instead trust in the Saviour.

    In addition, I was pointing out the inconsistency of Islam and the injustice of Allah because if you don’t have Christ to atone for your sins and pay for your forgiveness, then there will be sin at the end of the world that hasn’t been atoned for or punished. That would make allah unjust in dealing with sin.

    You need God’s mercy because offering your good deeds to him is like a criminal bribing a judge to forgive him – like a man who robbed a bank but tried to escape jail by telling the judge that he does gardening for old ladies. His good deed of helping old ladies is irrelavant to his crime of robbery. So the judge will have to punish him for robbing the bank regardless of the old ladies he has helped.
    Likewise, your attempt to earn heaven by doing good is like a man going skydiving without a parachute. The man without a parachute is trusting his arms to flap fast enough to save himself from dying upon impact with the ground. That won’t work, you have to trust the parachute to save you. And that Parachute is Christ. So Tony you have transfer trust from yourself, to the Saviour: Jesus who died and rose again to give you the gift of eternal life

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      Let me get some quick pints out of the way:

      a. The Qur’an is clear regarding hadith being authoritative
      b. I never said any of your initial paragraph I simply gave an example
      c. Most Shia sects are not Muslims and no one cares what they think
      d. These verses were abrogated and outside of our discussion

      Moving on, I have made my explanation simple to understand so please don’t add words to my mouth. Yes we believe the Qur’an is PHYSICALLY authored by God. Before God began creation He created the Pen and literally commanded the Pen to write these Scriptures down and they exist in the heavens on the Preserved Tablet. WHen Gabriel came down he was reading only some of it at time to the Prophet(saw) and this is even noted in the Qur’an.

      As for your point on Jesus having the title the Word that does not mean divinity or favoritism. One of his titles is “the Word” because he was spoken into existence without a father. Other prophets have titles in the Qur’an unique to them as well.

      Finally regarding your questions
      1. Yes the book is no longer God’s but that does not negate God wrote some lines in the corrupted book.
      2. No I do not believe so as the Qur’an clearly states

      I don’t know if you just don’t understand me or are being argumentative so I’m going to try one more time. The Torah and the Gospel are not the Bible so please stop saying that. They are Scriptures God commanded the Pen to write and they are HIS SPEECH not the prophet’s or a scribe. Using my above example now:

      “Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

      The Prophet (ﷺ) was hiding himself in Mecca and used to recite the (Qur’an) in a loud voice. When the pagans heard him they would abuse the Qur’an and the one who brought it, so Allah said to His Prophet: ‘Neither say your prayer aloud, nor say it in a low tone.’ (17.110)
      https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/172

      This part:
      ‘Neither say your prayer aloud, nor say it in a low tone.’ (17.110) is part of this whole chapter here:

      ALL of that was the Qur’an. The rest of this story excluding 17.110 is not. But now imagine Muslims started saying that WHOLE story was the Qur’an, that’s what the Bible is. I’ll now give you an example from the Bible of what was potentially in the Torah thaat God revealed to Moses(as) for proof:

      “Then Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.’” And Aaron held his peace.” (Leviticus 10:3)
      https://biblehub.com/leviticus/10-3.htm

      Here Moses (as) quotes a verse to comfort Aaron (as) that doesn’t exist in the Bible. Let’s extract the verse from the surrounding story like I did in the hadith example:

      ‘Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.’ (Al Taurat ?:?)

      THIS is Moses’s(as) Scripture the Torah. Not the tale around it. THIS verse was part of a larger thing. What happened to the rest of it? This unrecorded writing is what God is talking about in the Qur’an. Muslims don’t believe in the stuff around that verse we believe in THAT right there.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Pk

        d. These verses were abrogated and outside of our discussion

        What verses sorry? If you’re referring to the verses that say the torah gospel and psalms were revealed by God then no they weren’t abrogated they are valid revelations according to allah himself “He revealed the Torah and the Gospel as Guidance and Light” (surah 3.3-4), “Before this We WROTE in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): `My servants, the righteous, shall inherit the earth.'” This is a direct quotation from Psalm 37:29 so according to the Quran, the Psalms are present with the people of the Book and they are true at the time of Muhammad. The words of these scriptures cant be changed (surah 18.27) “so if any do fail to judge by it they are no better than the rebels” (5.47)

        He preserved (not abrogated) it by protecting the Christians –

        Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Ressurection: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.” S. 3:55

        O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, “Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the Disciples, “We are Allah’s helpers!” then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and THEY became the ones who PREVAILED” S. 61:14

        The ones that prevailed over the unbelievers were the Apostles such as Paul, as well as his followers as Christianity spread and become the religion of the roman empire. This means that if the Quran is correct, then Paul’s message is true since it has become dominant and has prevailed over all other opposing messages.
        So our scriptures are valid because the followers of Jesus “stood upon what Allah had revealed therein” (5.68) How could we triumph unless we had the word of God as guidance and light to stand upon?

        Yes we believe the Qur’an is PHYSICALLY authored by God. Before God began creation He created the Pen and literally commanded the Pen to write these Scriptures down and they exist in the heavens on the Preserved Tablet. WHen Gabriel came down he was reading only some of it at time to the Prophet(saw) and this is even noted in the Qur’an.

        Why would he command the Pen to write when he has 2 perfectly good right hands to write with?

        According to the Quran, the new revelations can be verified by asking the people who read the scripture before him (surah 10.94) so why would Allah leave the scriptures in heaven on a tablet instead of giving them to us so we can read it and see if Muhammad’s revelation corresponds to the previous scripture?
        If it’s in heaven we have no way of telling whether or not muhammad was a true prophet.

        1. Yes the book is no longer God’s but that does not negate God wrote some lines in the corrupted book.

        We can agree that some of the jews made up some additions and sold it (Surah 2.79) but some jews did not as Surah 3:199 says “And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book those who believe in God, and in that which has been revealed to you (plural), and in that which has been revealed to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the signs of God for a miserable gain. For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.”

        The only corrupt ‘Torah’ was the misinterpetation and out of context quotation which the unsaved Jews made “with their tounges” (3.78)
        So its still the preserved authoritative revelation from God.

        If the quran had some corrupted lines in it would it still be the scripture of God? Obviously not. And in the same way the Torah and Gospel cannot be God’s scriptures if they have corrupted parts.

        The Battle Array (Al-Saff) 61:6 “And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary said: `Oh Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God to you, confirming that which IS between my hands from the Torah…'”

        So according to this Jesus would be a false prophet because he claimed that he had the Torah and he affirmed its validity.

        So we must conclude the Torah and the Psalms and the Gospel are reliable. And the point is their reliability is proof of the falsehood of the quran.
        If christian scripture is reliable, then the quran is false, because it contradicts our scripture. But if our scripture is false, then the quran is false because the quran says our scripture is true. So either way islam is false.

        Your religion commands you to believe in Allah’s bookS so why don’t you believe in the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel?
        You can’t say that they are corrupt because Allah refers to them as “guidance and light” (3.4), he commands those who read them to “Judge by what I have revealed therein” (5.47), and he says “Jews and Christians have nothing to stand upon unless we stand upon what Allah has sent down in the Torah and the Gospel” (5.68)
        He says in 3.94 “Say, `BRING the Torah and READ it, if you are men of truth.'” – it would be impossible to obey this command if there was no Torah during the life of muhammad.
        So if the scriptures weren’t reliable at the time of muhammad why does allah tell Moses that muhammad is mentioned in the Torah and Gospel?

        Take 5.43 for another example. If the torah was corrupted, this verse should say “Yes Jews come to muhammad because your scripture has been corrupted” but the verse actually says “how do they come to you O muhammad while they possess the Torah, in which IS the decision of Allah”

        2. No I do not believe so [that the previous scriptures were reliable during muhammads lifetime] as the Qur’an clearly states

        Surah 2:85 – “What!? Do you believe in part of the book and reject part? Whosoever among you does this, his reward shall be none other than disgrace in the present life and in the Day of Judgement they shall be cast into a more awful torment.”

        Like

    2. Actually Mr Ehrman said the opposite. “Most of the hundreds of thousands of variations are of very little importance for anything, as most people – even specialists – would admit. Only a minority really matter. And none of these seriously threatens any significant, traditional, Christian doctrine.”

      https://ehrmanblog.org/fundamentalists-and-the-variants-in-our-manuscripts/

      /////

      ehrman said that luke does not have doctrine of atonement

      this destroys christian doctrine

      https://ehrmanblog.org/did-luke-have-a-doctrine-of-the-atonement-mailbag-september-24-2017/

      “Luke has the account of the last supper where Jesus says “this is my blood poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin” – theres your atoning death. ”

      no he doesnt , this was a christian scribes change/addition to text

      https://ehrmanblog.org/did-luke-have-a-doctrine-of-the-atonement-mailbag-september-24-2017/

      Ehrman says:

      And it is striking to note that the verses, as familiar as they are, do not represent Luke’s own understanding of the death of Jesus. For it is a striking feature of Luke’s portrayal of Jesus death — this may sound strange at first — that he never, anywhere else, indicates that the death itself is what brings salvation from sin. Nowhere in Luke’s entire two volume work (Luke and Acts), is Jesus’ death said to be “for you.” And in fact, on the two occasions in which Luke’s source Mark indicates that it was by Jesus’ death that salvation came (Mark 10:45; 15:39), Luke changed the wording of the text (or eliminated it). Luke, in other words, has a different understanding of the way Jesus death leads to salvation from Mark (and from Paul, and other early Christian writers).

      There goes the need of bloody atonement/shedding of your god.

      “And it also records Jesus preaching salvation by faith when he says “the tax collector wouldn’t even look up to heaven but he beat his chest and said: ‘God have mercy on me a sinner’” And Jesus concludes by saying – “God forgave the tax collector.” ”

      there is no idea of jesus needing to die for sins in luke.
      Why bring up this verse?

      “The idea that Luke borrowed from Pauline theology is impossible because Luke’s gospel was written before Paul’s letters! Also Paul quoted from Luke’s gospel.”

      When did i even mention anything about borrowing?

      “And why would the Scribes (jews who followed the old testament) need to corrupt luke?”

      Because it was not a memorised text and it has been proven that christians did not regard these texts as holy.

      ” Your quran says that the old testament, is the authoritative words of God and the old testament repeatedly says ”

      no it doesnt.

      “Christ was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. All of us like sheep have gone astray, we have all turned to our own way, but the LORD has laid all our sins on him”

      nonsense, there is no “for our”
      the servant who is diseased and weak is being punished for no reason. there is no idea of bloody sin ATONEMENT in isaiah or an idea that yhwh became FULLY man and willingly said to rape , murder, homosexuality….

      “give it to me baby”

      “– so even if luke was corrupted (which it wasn’t) the old testament says the same thing about Jesus…”

      ot does not say the same thing and neither does luke.

      adam eats apple and “just” god says, “sorry mate, you can stuff your repentance , coz nothing you can do will save u now…your faith, your repentance and your deeds can all get stuffed, because of you i will have to tranfer your sins and punish myself coz i am just god.

      then god decides to contradict himself coz he said to the jews REPENTANCE brings life .

      “Repentance through atonement brings life.”

      no this is incorrect. jews were not blood obsessed and made god bloody ritualistic pagan who needed blood shedding at every infraction.

      ” He actually said to the Jews: “the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls””

      the verse is about WORKS and what to eat and what NOT to eat. it never says BLOOD is the only way and isaiah, jeremiah and amos realized that, thats why they say that god wants works /obediance/prayer……

      So what if your in a different country or u dont have a temple?

      where does god say in ot that if you cant bring blood offerings then your worship is no good

      “Let me just clarify, we don’t believe that Jesus is God the Father, we believe he’s the Son of God.”

      So jesus is not identical to god or the father,then jesus is a piece ?

      “So God did not send himself, He sent his Son, the perfect sinless man whom God

      empowered and did miracles through. He was crucified by wicked and evil people, he was buried, but he didnt stay there because God raised him from the dead, giving him all authority in heaven and on earth.
      God did not punish himself, Jesus gave His life to pay for your salvation.”

      God absolutely needs no one to be sent to die for sins. he does not need jesus to be MERCIFUL and i do not need jesus to SEEK god. I ask God directly.

      You asked the following –
      So you as a sinner who is guaranteed to sin today, tomorrow and in future will be relaxing in heaven coz your “just” god decided to pour your sins on himself? You call this JUST?

      “I’m not guaranteed to sin and neither are you, we all have free will.”

      We are created weak and one hundred percent u will sin ,

      so every time you “repent”
      Just think about how god cant FORGIVE but only punish violently coz sins (even eating apple deserves eternal damnation?)

      “Apple eating doesn’t deserve eternal damnation. Christians don’t believe that babies are guilty of Adam’s sin.”

      Tell that to paulis and joal

      “Tony you’re correct that it would not be just for God to be unable to forgive unless he punishes someone. ”

      yeah coz he has no boss above him and he is merciful, kind and forgiving

      “That makes no sense. But that’s not what we believe.
      The punishment for our sin is hell. ”

      who said tha t? Why would a “slow to anger”
      “Loving”
      “Kind”
      “Merciful”
      “Forgiving”
      God want to SEND REPENTING servant to hell?
      Is repenting servant EQUAL to non repenting? Is sinless baby equal to sinner?


      ‘Jesus didn’t go to hell for us.
      So Jesus wasn’t punished for us.”

      so this means hell cannot be a punishment for one sin.

      “Jesus wasn’t punished for our sins, he provided an atonement for our sins. It’s like this, God is a judge, you’ve broken the law by sinning that makes you a guilty criminal.”

      ezekiel says that wicked who turns from his sin shall save his life

      ” But Jesus paid your fine.”

      the fine was hell? jesus got a short transfer not a permanent one. jesus did not do the time or the quality, he got saved.

      “You deserve God’s wrath because you’ve sinned. ”

      If i deserve gods wrath i would never be put on earth.
      If i deserve gods wrath, then repentance is useless,belief is useless and deeds are useless.

      “But through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ you can be forgiven and receive eternal life”

      Oh….so you do the sins and yoi DESERVE hell but “jUST “god will give u eternal life EVEN if u continue to sin? And god is just? christians STILL sin. and they think they will be GOING heaven even though THEY continue to sin…

      ” right now if you transfer trust from your good deeds to instead trust in the Saviour.”

      its not about what I trust its WHAT GOD SAID TO DO and if God said do GOOD deeds , then i TRUST GOD

      “In addition, I was pointing out the inconsistency of Islam and the injustice of Allah because if you don’t have Christ to atone for your sins and pay for your forgiveness, then there will be sin at the end of the world that hasn’t been atoned for or punished. ”

      I FIND u guys funny. Your sins are TRANSFERRED and u are given heaven , YET U R NOT PUNISHED EVEN though your gods justice DEMANDS it.

      islam says God forgives and can PUNISH in this life for CONTINUED sin. In islam it is the criminal who will pay for his sins and if he repents and stops wrong then god will forgive. It is islam which is JUST and islam never says that merciful God says sins =punishment in hell


      That would make allah unjust in dealing with sin.”

      No it wouldnt. DEFINE forgiveness.

      “You need God’s mercy because offering your good deeds to him is like a criminal”

      I am not the creator of the good i do. It is God who created everything. When i do good, i am doing good with the knowledge “it is through the mercy of God that i am able to do good. ”

      i trust in what God wants me to do, not in a body of a man which was shed .

      ” bribing a judge to forgive him – like a man who robbed a bank but tried to escape jail by telling the judge that he does gardening for old ladies. ”
      and when u sin, u tell your god that your jesus was shed for the sin u just did. So when x watches porn, x transfers his “watching” to jesus and tells the father , “even though i DESERVE hell for watching porn ,the blood of jesus paid for it, i am guaranteed heaven”

      Talk about bribing.

      U keep mentioning DEEDS, I SAID GOd does not need bloody shedding of jesus to FORGIVE or be MERCIFUL, HE knows we WILL sin thats why He has attribute of forgiving and mercy.

      “His good deed of helping old ladies is irrelavant to his crime of robbery. ”

      okay, lets say that the criminal robs and runs away from justice, becomes a christian and changes his ways (DEEDS) ON day of judgement he is informed that his robbery robed a family of life and made them poor ,living in snow. children died .since he swims in the blood of jesus, he will go to heaven, yet where is the justice for the WRONGED? They Still remain wronged

      like pastor raping boy in church and running of to different city and “repenting”

      in islam the crimi nal could be punishes in this life, in grave or hereafter, in your religion criminal going heaven….where is justice?

      yes , ezekiel says DOING RIGHT is what yhwh wants and one DOES NOT HAVE to be sinless to do right. so deeds even in ot can help because it is GOD WHO KNOWS IF DEED IS DONE SINCERELY or not.

      “o the judge will have to punish him for robbing the bank regardless of the old ladies he has helped.”

      judges can make LEEWAYS, ALMIGHTY CANT????

      “Likewise, your attempt to earn heaven by doing good is like a man going skydiving without a parachute. “The man without a parachute is trusting his arms to flap fast enough to save himself from dying upon impact with the ground.”

      there u go again saying “in yourself” when it is TRUST IN WHAT ALMIGHTY WANTS.

      ” That won’t work, you have to trust the parachute to save you. And that Parachute is Christ”.

      That parachute is Gods guidance which he sent with the messengers and what he told us about himself

      “So Tony you have transfer trust from yourself, to the Saviour: Jesus who died and rose again to give you the gift of eternal life”

      You dont need jesus to receive eternal life. look man, you really think GOd wants you to bring a WALL (jesus) between Himself and the worshipper? WHAT kind of relationship is it THROUGH a WALL? GOd remains on the OTHERSIDE, ISLAM BREAKS THE WALL. Seek Almighty without jesus.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. “And it is striking to note that the verses, as familiar as they are, do not represent Luke’s own understanding of the death of Jesus. For it is a striking feature of Luke’s portrayal of Jesus death — this may sound strange at first — that he never, anywhere else, indicates that the death itself is what brings salvation from sin. Nowhere in Luke’s entire two volume work (Luke and Acts), is Jesus’ death said to be “for you.” And in fact, on the two occasions in which Luke’s source Mark indicates that it was by Jesus’ death that salvation came (Mark 10:45; 15:39), Luke changed the wording of the text (or eliminated it). Luke, in other words, has a different understanding of the way Jesus death leads to salvation from Mark (and from Paul, and other early Christian writers).”

        This is a good example of how the Quran is the “Criterion” for deciding what is authentic and what is not authentic in the Bible. Luke differs greatly from the other gospels in this regard. Another example would be how Luke omitted the story of the Gentile woman. It probably did not appeal to his own Gentile background, and so he omitted it. Certainly, this agrees with the Islamic position. A prophet would never reject a believer, no matter what ethnic background he/she is. But the Jesus of Mark and Matthew rejected a Gentile who was already a believer, all because she was a Gentile.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Pk

        ‘ehrman said that luke does not have doctrine of atonement’

        Maybe Ehrman needs to reread it because Luke has the account of the last supper where Jesus says “this is my blood poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin”
        He provides no evidence as to why these verses were apparently added so I’m going to disagree with him.

        “And it is striking to note that the verses, as familiar as they are, do not represent Luke’s own understanding of the death of Jesus” – the words of Bart Ehrman
        But he’s wrong. Luke 18 says “Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.””

        The prophets wrote concerning the son of man –
        “He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our sins.”
        And again
        “70 weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to put an end to sin and to usher in everlasting righteousness. For messiah will die but not for himself.”
        And again
        “Who shall speak of his generation? for his life was cut off from the earth.”

        Ehrman also said ‘nowhere does Acts say Jesus death brings salvation’.
        I think he needs to reconsider chapters 2, 8, 13 and 20.
        For the sake of space I’ll give 2 examples where luke writes of the salvific death and ressurection of Jesus Christ –
        Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins” was the conclusion after saying that this Man Jesus was “put to death” (vs 28) and “was raised from the dead”(vs 33)
        Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He bought with His own blood.”

        Allah promised to protect the christians and said christians have nothing to stand upon unless they stand upon the Gospel sent down to them. So this causes 2 problems for Islam.

        1) If a scribe did indeed add these parts about the death of Jesus for sins then allah was wrong because He said He would protect the christians and he said we have to stand upon what our scriptures say. And if allah is wrong he’s a false god and we can therefore reject the quran.

        2) If a scribe didnt add the parts about Jesus dying for sins but they were actually revealed by allah himself as surah 3.3 , 5.47, 68 , 10.94 and 18.27 teaches, then Islam contradicts itself because Islam makes 2 claims – “Jesus did not die for sins” and “the Christian Scriptures are reliable when they say Jesus died for sins”

        I said –
        ” Your quran says that the old testament, is the authoritative words of God and the old testament repeatedly says ”

        You replied –
        no it doesnt.

        My response –
        Read the following out of your own sources –

        Surah 3.3-4 “Allah revealed the Torah and the Gospel as Guidance and Light”
        So the Quran is claiming that the Jewish scripture named the Torah was revealed by Allah.

        Surah 5.43 “How do they (the Jews) come to you (Muhammad) when they have the Torah? Which contains the (plain) decision of Allah”
        Here is where Allah confirms the reliability of the Torah because He says the Jews possess it and it contains the decision of Allah so they don’t need to come to muhammad. It wouldnt make sense for Allah to say this if the Torah was a corrupt book.

        And 10.94 “If you are in doubt (O Muhammad) of that which has been revealed to you (then) ask those who read the Scripture before you”
        We know from 4.136 and 5.68 that the Scripture before muhammad is the Torah and the Gospel. So Allah is saying ask the Christians and Jews because they have read the Torah. Again it wouldnt make sense for Allah to refer to the Torah as an authoritative source if it was corrupted.
        Thus your quran does indeed say that the OT is the authoritative words of God which cannot be corrupted (Surah 18.27)

        I claimed –
        ” He actually said to the Jews: “the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls””

        You replied by saying –
        the verse is about WORKS and what to eat and what NOT to eat. it never says BLOOD is the only way and isaiah, jeremiah and amos realized that, thats why they say that god wants works /obediance/prayer……

        I say in response to that –
        God does want obedience but there are instances when you have failed to obey that is why you need atonement.
        The verse I quoted is leviticus 17:11 check the context for yourself and you’ll see that after discussing deit God declares “it is the blood which makes atonement for your souls”

        ‘So what if your in a different country or u dont have a temple?’

        1John 2.2 says “Christ died for the sins of the whole world.” So if you’re in a different country or you don’t have a temple what you need to do is put your trust in Christ then God will forgive your sins.

        ‘God absolutely needs no one to be sent to die for sins. he does not need jesus to be MERCIFUL and i do not need jesus to SEEK god. I ask God directly.’

        No you dont seek God. You seek allah. And whats interesting is that your saying you dont believe the revelation in my scriptures and you distinguish Allah from the God of the Bible, yet your quran says the complete opposite. It says muslims have to believe in what has been revealed to the jews and christians and that the muslim God and the Judeo Christian God is the same one.
        You can’t get to God without going through Jesus –
        John 14.6 “I [Jesus] am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

        ‘We are created weak and one hundred percent u will sin’

        No we are created by God and everything created by God is good. If its 100% guaranteed I will sin then I can’t make choices. Do you deny that we have free will?

        ‘who said tha t? Why would a “slow to anger”
        “Loving”
        “Kind”
        “Merciful”
        “Forgiving”
        God want to SEND REPENTING servant to hell?
        Is repenting servant EQUAL to non repenting? Is sinless baby equal to sinner?’

        Because repentance alone cannot atone. Im going to give an example of why repentance alone is not enough – lets say I bombed the twin towers, was arrested by the police, then taken to court and I said to the judge ‘I’m sorry I won’t do it again’ should the judge let me back into society with no punishment?

        ‘ezekiel says that wicked who turns from his sin shall save his life’

        Yes he shall and the rest of the verse says “if a wicked man turns from his sins and keeps all my commandments all his sins shall be forgotten and he shall surely live.” You have to turn from sin yes, but you have to keep his commandments, and one of his commandments is believe that Jesus died and rose again for you to be saved. (Romans 10:9-13)

        I said Jesus made atonement for you to avoid being punished in hell. You replied to this by saying –
        jesus got a short transfer not a permanent one. jesus did not do the time or the quality, he got saved.

        Heres an anology that will better explain –
        Imagine you are a 53yr old Jihadist who has been sentenced to prison for sleeping with a 9yr old girl named Aisha. The bail is $1,000,000. You don’t have the money to pay the bail so the officers are about to drag you into prison, but a stranger walks into the court and pays your bail for you. The bail has been paid so the judge won’t punish you. That’s what Jesus did for you.

        ‘Oh….so you do the sins and yoi DESERVE hell but “jUST “god will give u eternal life EVEN if u continue to sin? And god is just? christians STILL sin. and they think they will be GOING heaven even though THEY continue to sin…’

        No we don’t continue to sin, if you continue in sin then you are not saved (1john 3.8).
        God gives us the grace to resist temptation and he causes us to live in holiness. 1John 2:4 -“whoever claims to know Jesus but does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them”

        ‘its not about what I trust its WHAT GOD SAID TO DO and if God said do GOOD deeds , then i TRUST GOD’

        How many good deeds do you have to do before allah will accept you?

        ‘islam says God forgives and can PUNISH in this life for CONTINUED sin. In islam it is the criminal who will pay for his sins and if he repents and stops wrong then god will forgive. It is islam which is JUST and islam never says that merciful God says sins =punishment in hell’

        But not all people get punished in this life.
        For example Muhammad got away with many sins –

        1) Murdering thousands of Jews, polytheists and pagans (Sahih Muslim 1:33 – The Messenger of Allah said: “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat.”
        This command came from Surah 9.29 which commands muhammad and his followers to “fight unbelievers.”)

        2) Having more wives than quran allows –
        Narrated Anas: “The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.”

        3) Beating his child bride –
        Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!” ~ Bukhari vol. 7, # 715
        When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me… he said: ‘Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me?’ I said: ‘Yes.’ He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: ‘Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?’ ~ Sahih Muslim #2127:

        4) Adultery and prostitution (under the guise of ‘temporal marriage’) –

        “Not lawful to you, (O Muhammad), are (any additional) women after (this), nor (is it lawful) for you to exchange them for (other) wives, even if their beauty were to please you, except what your right hand possesses. And ever is Allah over all things, an Observer.” ~ Surah 33:52
        Ibn Al-Tabari says this means “He was forbidden to marry more women, even if he were to divorce any of them and wanted replace her with another, except for those whom his right hand owned (slave women).”
        Jalal-Al-Jalalayn says the same thing. This verse means Allah prevented muhammad from marrying women who he planned to divorce “except those whom his right hand owns, of slavegirls, which is lawful for you.”

        5) And being a false prophet –

        “If he (Muhammad) fabricated against Us any sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand, then We would surely have cut his life-vein (aorta).” ~ Surah 69.46

        “I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” ~ Muhammad. (Al-Tabari 6.111)

        Narrated Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O ‘Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.” ~ Bukhari’s Hadith 5.713

         
        Forgiveness is witholding punishment. But if islam is true then there will be millions of unpunished sins at the end of the world. Muhammad realised this problem and knew that it is unjust for God to let people into heaven if they have sinned.
        This is why Muhammad taught that Jews and Christians will bear the sins of Muslims:

        Sahih Muslim 6665 — Abu Musa reported that Allah’s Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.”

        Sahih Muslim 6666 — Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 

        Sahih Muslim 6668 — Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. 

        ‘U keep mentioning DEEDS, I SAID GOd does not need bloody shedding of jesus to FORGIVE or be MERCIFUL, HE knows we WILL sin thats why He has attribute of forgiving and mercy.’

        For your sake you better hope that allah prays hard enough so that he has the self control to be merciful to you.
        Hadith 216 – Allah said: O Musa! What did your people say? Musa said: O my Lord, You already know they said: Does your Lord pray? Allah said: Tell them My prayer for My servants is that My Mercy should precede My Anger. If it were not so, I would have destroyed them. [Ibn ‘Asakir] (Al-Ahadith Al-Qudsiyyah)

        Not only does allah praying contradict tawhid, but judgment is another example of how the islamic concept of God is contradictory – Allah has the attribute of Mercy so he must forgive sinners. But Allah also has the attributes of Righteousness and Justice so he must punish sinners. So there’s the contradiction. Is he going to punish you so that he can express his attribute of justice? or is he going to forgive you so he can express his attribute of mercy?

        ‘okay, lets say that the criminal robs and runs away from justice, becomes a christian and changes his ways (DEEDS) ON day of judgement he is informed that his robbery robed a family of life and made them poor ,living in snow. children died .since he swims in the blood of jesus, he will go to heaven, yet where is the justice for the WRONGED? They Still remain wronged
        like pastor raping boy in church and running of to different city and “repenting”
        in islam the crimi nal could be punishes in this life, in grave or hereafter, in your religion criminal going heaven….where is justice?’

        1) If the robber became a true christian then he would obey what Jesus commanded in John 13 “if you love each other then the whole world will know that you are my disciples” by giving that family what they need to live.

        2) That pastor would not go to heaven because raping is a sin.

        ‘ezekiel says DOING RIGHT is what yhwh wants and one DOES NOT HAVE to be sinless to do right. so deeds even in ot can help because it is GOD WHO KNOWS IF DEED IS DONE SINCERELY or not.’

        Being a sinner and still being approved by allah may be true in islam but the Bible says “nothing unholy will ever enter” i.e you must be sinless to make it to heaven. Think about it this way, if your mum just mopped the floors and you wanted to walk into her house she would check to see if your shoes are clean. If they have mud on them you won’t be allowed into her house. Its the same with us. Sin makes us unclean. God’s house does not have sin in it so you must be sinless to go there.

        ‘judges can make LEEWAYS, ALMIGHTY CANT????’

        If your god is like a human judge then of course he will make a ‘leeway’ for you. Not surprising that your god is like a human being since the quran tells us that after allah commanded the angels to commit shirk by bowing to adam, it says “allah has two right hands” (surah 38.75) and His 2 hands will perish, so allah will eventually just become a face – “There is no god but He. Everything will perish except His own face.” (28:88)
        This means he is a corporeal being and thus couldn’t have created the universe since he is restricted to space and time. Furthermore if “nothing resembles allah” (Surah 42:11) then the quran contradicts itself by saying that allah has 2 hands and a face which resembles human body parts. Therefore allah is not the true God.

        Would it be right for a human judge to forgive a thief just because he has helped old ladies cross the road in the past? No of course not. Why? Because the judge didn’t punish the crime. Agree?

        About doing good deeds to earn a spot in heaven you said –
        ‘there u go again saying “in yourself” when it is TRUST IN WHAT ALMIGHTY WANTS.’

        How many lies have you told in your life? Have you ever stolen anything? Dishonoured your parents? Looked at a woman with lust?
        If you admit that you’ve commited these sins then you haven’t done what the Almighty wants.

        ‘You dont need jesus to receive eternal life. look man, you really think GOd wants you to bring a WALL (jesus) between Himself and the worshipper? WHAT kind of relationship is it THROUGH a WALL? GOd remains on the OTHERSIDE, ISLAM BREAKS THE WALL. Seek Almighty without jesus.’

        Sure you can get to allah without Jesus. But you can’t get to God without going through Jesus (1Timothy 2:5)

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    3. “The idea that Luke borrowed from Pauline theology is impossible because Luke’s gospel was written before Paul’s letters! Also Paul quoted from Luke’s gospel.”

      I don’t know where you got this idea from, but it is incorrect. Scholars are unanimous that Paul’s letters (at least the ones they think he actually authored) were the first NT documents to be written, predating all of the gospels, including Luke. Luke was written even after Mark and Matthew.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Pk

        Where’s the evidence that Luke was a Gentile? 
        Jesus didn’t reject her, he tested her faith. And because of that she got what she wanted.

        I have to disagree with the scholars on the dating of Luke because 1Timothy 5:18 quotes Luke 10:7 as a “Scripture” alongside the Torah.  And 1Corinthians 11:24 quotes Luke 22:19 so the scholars may need to rethink their dates because this shows that Luke’s gospel was written before Paul’s letters.

        In fact their dates of the mid 80s to 90s is wrong because the gospel of John was written before 70AD otherwise John wouldn’t have said that the Sheep Gate (a section of Solomon’s temple) was perfectly in tact when he wrote his gospel.
        All of the NT was written before 70AD because none of the authors speak in past tense about the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

        If the quran is a criterion over the bible then the quran is false because it says that it was sent to confirm the bible. The word for criterion is also translated protect, to witness, to keep trust, and to support’ as well as control, watch, preserve.

        I would say that the Quran is not a Criterion over the Bible for 3 reasons –

        1) Surah 7.157 says “muhammad is mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them (the jews and chrstians)”.
        But here’s the problem he isnt mentioned in our scriptures. Therefore the Quran is wrong and can’t be a criterion.
        Unless I haven’t searched hard enough to find muhammad in the Bible. Can you point me to where  the Bible mentions muhamamd?

        2) Surah 10.94 which I haven’t heard any convincing explanation for why this verse is in the quran if the quran was sent to abrogate/correct the bible.
        The verse simply says “if you are in doubt (O Muhammad) about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you.”
        So the scripture before muhammad is the criterion over the truth of the new revelations.
        Since Muhammad’s new revelations contradict the scripture before him then we must be faithful to what allah says in surah 5.68 by rejecting Muhammad’s new revelations.

        3) 5.47 says “Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has sent down, those are indeed the transgressors”
        This verse would not make sense if the Gospel was corrupted.

        Now 4.136 says you muslims are commanded to believe in Allah’s bookS: The Torah, the Psalms, the Gospel and the Quran. This creates a logical contradiction inasmuch as the Bible and the Quran oppose each other. Because you can’t believe in 2 things that oppose each other. Therefore allah is illogical and can’t be the true God because he commands you to do just that

        Like

      2. “Where’s the evidence that Luke was a Gentile?
        Jesus didn’t reject her, he tested her faith. And because of that she got what she wanted. ”

        Internal evidence suggests that he was a Gentile. Of course, we don’t actually KNOW his true identity, and that’s the problem with your gospels.

        And yes, Jesus DID reject her. It’s ludicrous that he was “testing” her faith when she already had faith. Were Jewish believers also tested that way? No, it was a racial test. The woman had to essentially accept that she had to wait her “turn”. Why is salvation based on an ethnic hierarchy?

        “I have to disagree with the scholars on the dating of Luke because 1Timothy 5:18 quotes Luke 10:7 as a “Scripture” alongside the Torah. And 1Corinthians 11:24 quotes Luke 22:19 so the scholars may need to rethink their dates because this shows that Luke’s gospel was written before Paul’s letters.”

        Well, the weight of scholarly discourse is against you. You appeal to 1 Timothy, which is considered a forgery by most scholars. So we can already dismiss that. As for 1 Corinthians allegedly “quoting” Luke, it is nothing more than a non-sequitur. You are essentially arguing that Luke was the earliest NT document to be written, but this is IMPOSSIBLE, for Luke himself states that he was not the first to write an account:

        “Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled…”

        And if we are going by who quotes who, then it is certain that Luke came after Mark and Matthew because he quotes both extensively.

        But is gets worse. You didn’t quote the next part of 1 Corinthians 11, which clearly contradicts what Luke wrote. Let’s compare them:

        “And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.” (Luke 22:19-20)

        “For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”” (1 Corinthians 11:23-25)

        If Paul was quoting Luke, why did he contradict him on the blood quote? Luke says “which is poured out for you” whereas Paul says “do this…in remembrance of me”. Clearly, Paul was NOT quoting Luke. He was quoting some other source, possibly an oral tradition. This is likely since Paul said “for I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you”. He didn’t say he got it from a written source, such as Luke.

        As for John 5, this is a silly argument whose most ardent supporter is Daniel Wallace. It is on the basis of ONE WORD that Wallace wants to date the ENTIRE gospel! No serious scholar would propose such a preposterous theory. But let’s look at it:

        “Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda.” (John 5:2)

        First of all, the original Greek does NOT have the word “gate”. The Greek word is “kolymbēthra”, which is basically a “pool” for bathing:

        “κολυμβήθρα, κολυμβήθρας, ἡ (κολυμβάω), a place for diving, a swimming-pool (A. V. simply pool): John 9:7, and Rec. in 11; a reservoir or pool used for bathing, John 5:2, 4” (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2861&t=KJV)

        The pool itself could have been known to a later writer, even decades after the destruction of the temple. It does not prove that John wrote his gospel before 70CE. He could have been referring to the pool which still existed in his time. No source mentions any “gate” (besides Nehemiah, which refers to the gate in the 5th century BCE). Rather, they all mention the pool:

        “Most translations also render “sheep gate” when there is no word “gate” in the original Greek text of John, while sources from antiquity mention the pool or the sheep pool but not the Sheep Gate near the pool. Although Nehemiah does refer to a Sheep Gate being built in Jerusalem in the 5th century BC, and it may have even been in the area of the Pool of Bethesda, all evidence suggests that John was referring to a pool and not a gate. Eusebius in the 4th century actually mentioned the “sheep pool” not the sheep gate, and identified it as a place with twin pools (Eusebius, Onomasticon). The Bordeaux Pilgrim in the early 4th century AD called them the twin pools but mentioned no gate, while other writings of the 4th and 5th centuries also mention the site of the pool, demonstrating the ruins of the pool were known and visited during the Late Roman and Byzantine periods (Itinerarium Burdigalense; Cyril of Jerusalem; Jerome)” (https://drivethruhistoryadventures.com/the-pool-of-bethesda/).

        So this does not constitute evidence that the gospel of John was written before 70CE. It is more wishful thinking from the likes of disgraced scholars like Daniel Wallace. He has become known for jumping to conclusions, such as the recent debacle about an alleged 1st-century fragment of the gospel of Mark, which even Wallace recently admitted was not from Mark.

        Liked by 1 person

  11. stewjo004

    @ pk
    I have to wonder if you’re being genuine as all of these points have been addressed clearly and you keep repeating them:

    7:157 God isn’t even talking to Christians and Jews He’s speaking to Moses after the children of Israel worshipped the Calf.

    5:47 and 4:136 have been addressed in my post up top that you must have missed. Once again NEVER revealed the Bible it’s not that hard to understand.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Pk

      Hey I already granted He didnt reveal the Bible but that the Quran claims He revealed the Torah Gospel and Psalms.

      I have consistently brought up the fact that if the Torah Psalms and Gospel have been corrupted then they can no longer be called the “Scriptures of God” and you agreed by saying “Yes you’re absolutely correct once someone alters something God said it’s no longer His.”
      So if you think that the Torah Gospel and Psalms are corrupt then Surah 4.136 is wrong because it commands you to believe in them as “Scriptures of God”

      I agree that Allah is speaking to Moses following the golden calf incident in surah 7 but that doesnt change the fact that He claims muhammad is mentioned in our scriptures. So where is he mentioned?

      I would say that you didn’t address my argument from Surah 18.27 which says: “And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.” Pickthall
      – you said “His words” refer to “His decrees” but there is nothing in the context that prevents me from interpreting “His words” to be “His words written down in his bookS.” Thus the Torah and Gospel have not and cannot be changed. That is why Allah says we can still use it to judge and stone the sexually immoral – 5:43 “how do they come to you O muhammad while they have the Torah? In which IS the plain decision of Allah” you haven’t adressed my interpretation of this. If the Torah was corrupted then 5:43 should say “Yes muhammad compel the Jews to come to you because they no longer have the Torah. Which used to contain the plain decision of Allah but now it’s been corrupted”

      Like

      1. stewjo004

        I’m just going to repost because I think you missed my earlier one:

        Let me get some quick points out of the way:

        a. The Qur’an is clear regarding hadith being authoritative
        b. I never said any of your initial paragraph I simply gave an example
        c. Most Shia sects are not Muslims and no one cares what they think
        d. These verses were abrogated and outside of our discussion

        Moving on, I have made my explanation simple to understand so please don’t add words to my mouth. Yes, we believe the Qur’an is PHYSICALLY authored by God. Before God began creation He created the Pen and literally commanded the Pen to write these Scriptures down and they exist in the heavens on the Preserved Tablet. When Gabriel came down he was reading only some of it at a time to the Prophet(saw) and this is even noted in the Qur’an.

        As for your point on Jesus having the title the Word that does not mean divinity or favoritism. One of his titles is “the Word” because he was spoken into existence without a father. Other prophets have titles in the Qur’an unique to them as well.

        Finally regarding your questions
        1. Yes, the book is no longer God’s but that does not negate God wrote some lines in the corrupted book.
        2. No, I do not believe so as the Qur’an clearly states

        I don’t know if you just don’t understand me or are being argumentative so I’m going to try one more time. The Torah and the Gospel are not the Bible so please stop saying that. They are Scriptures God commanded the Pen to write and they are HIS SPEECH, not the prophet’s or a scribe. Using my above example now:

        “Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

        The Prophet (ﷺ) was hiding himself in Mecca and used to recite the (Qur’an) in a loud voice. When the pagans heard him they would abuse the Qur’an and the one who brought it, so Allah said to His Prophet: ‘Neither say your prayer aloud, nor say it in a low tone.’ (17.110)
        https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/172

        This part:
        ‘Neither say your prayer aloud, nor say it in a low tone.’ (17.110) is part of this whole chapter here:

        ALL of that was the Qur’an. The rest of this story excluding 17.110 is not. But now imagine Muslims started saying that WHOLE story was the Qur’an, that’s what the Bible is. I’ll now give you an example from the Bible of what was potentially in the Torah that God revealed to Moses(as) for proof:

        “Then Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.’” And Aaron held his peace.” (Leviticus 10:3)
        https://biblehub.com/leviticus/10-3.htm

        Here Moses (as) quotes a verse to comfort Aaron (as) that doesn’t exist in the Bible. Let’s extract the verse from the surrounding story like I did in the hadith example:

        ‘Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.’ (Al Taurat ?:?)

        THIS is Moses’s(as) Scripture the Torah. Not the tale around it. THIS verse was part of a larger thing. What happened to the rest of it? This unrecorded writing is what God is talking about in the Qur’an. Muslims don’t believe in the stuff around that verse we believe in THAT right there.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. Pk

      I understand your argument about you not believing the story surrounding the revelation but the quran tells stories behind the revelation of pharaoh drowning, circumcision, Noah’s flood, -Moses and the burning bush etc so your argument would defeat parts of the quran.

      I don’t know if you just don’t understand me or are being argumentative so I’m going to try one more time. The Torah and the Gospel are not the Bible so please stop saying that. They are Scriptures God commanded the Pen to write and they are HIS SPEECH not the prophet’s or a scribe.

      I do apologise if I’m coming off as argumentative i’m not trying to. I’m just trying to answer your objections and show you places in your own sources which support what I’m saying. 

      Let me get some quick pints out of the way:

      a. The Qur’an is clear regarding hadith being authoritative

      If hadith are authoritative you have to believe certain things that are contadictory.

      1) You admit that the torah is reliable scripture revealed by God –

      Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38 No. 4434 –
      Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.

      Evidently, neither Muhammad nor his first companions understood S. 5:12-15 to be referring to textual corruption but only to misinterpretation and quoting it out of context.

      This hadith is confirmed by verses such as 5.43 “how do they (the jews) come to you (Muhammad) while they have the Torah. In which is the plain decision of Allah.” If the Torah was corrupt this verse should say “Let all the Jews come to you Muhammad because they do not have the Torah because Allah’s own scripture was corrupted by humans so it no longer has the plain decision of Allah”

      Your interpretation that “the words of God” are “only the decrees of God” is foreign to the quran because there is nothing in the context of Surah 6.114-115 that neccesitates it only refers to His decrees. In fact the context indicates that “the words of God” refer to his “revealed Scriptures”. After you look at this verse i’m sure you’ll have to agree with me here –
      Surah 18.27 “And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.” Pickthall

      If hadith are authoritative then muhammad was a false prophet –

      Bukhari’s Hadith 3.786 –
      Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, “Shall we kill her?” He said, “No.” I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah’s Apostle.

      Bukhari’s Hadith 5.713 -Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.”

      – so basically muhammad attacks Khaibar, eats poisoned meat with his companions and gets sick because of that.

      Sahih Muslim volume 3, # 5440 – Aisha reported that when Allah’s Messenger fell ill, he recited over his body Mu’awwidhatan and blew over him and when his sickness was aggravated I used to recite over him and rub him with his hand with the hope that it was more blessed.

      Ibn Sa’d page 265 – The Apostle of Allah fell ill and he i.e. Gabriel, chanted on him, saying, “In the name of Allah I chant on to ward off from you every thing that harms you and (to ward off you) against every envier and from every evil eye and Allah will heal you.”

      – after being poisoned he prays for healing, asking Gabriel and Aisha to pray with him.

      But here’s the interesting thing, the reason why the Jews poisoned him was to know “if he was a true prophet” (Sahih al bukhari 4.394) because a true prophet would have been healed and protected from death. But the fact that muhammad did die proves he was a false prophet.
      “And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah), We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta)” (Quran 69:44-46)
      So according to this, Muhammad forged falsities about God and he was killed by having his aorta cut off. Which caused illness which was inflicted upon him by God even though he, Gabriel and his favourite wife prayed for healing God refused to do so. Thus proving he was a false prophet

      When muhammad found out that Satan had put words on his tongue he said –
      I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” ~Muhammad (Al-Tabari 6:111)
      So again muhammad was a false prophet because he spoke words in the name of God which God did not command him to speak and also because he couldn’t tell the difference between revelation from God and revelation from Satan. That also refutes the quran’s claim that no one can produce 10 verses similar to the verses in the quran because satan was easily able to do it.

      If the hadith are authoritative then the quran is false –

      “Each soul earns only on its own account, neither can any bearer of burdens bear someone elses burden.” – Surah 6.164

      But the teachings of Muhammad contradicts the quran:

      Sahih Muslim 6668 — Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. 

      110 Hadith Qudsi—Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.

      So Allah changed his mind later on this topic:

      “Your God is one God; so (as for) those who do not believe in the hereafter, their hearts are ignorant and they are proud. Truly Allah knows what they hide and what they manifest; surely He does not love the proud. And when it is said to them, what is it that your Lord has revealed? They say: Stories of the ancients; That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear” – Qur’an 16:22-25

      Thus the quran contradicts itself. And the quran contradicts the hadith.

      So if you believe muhammad on this issue then you condemn the teachings of the quran. But if you believe the quran on this issue you condemn muhammad.

      Other false and unscientific teachings from Muhammad –

      Ibn Majah No. 342 – The Prophet said: “Most of the punishment of the grave will be because of urine.”

      Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: Once the Prophet, while passing through one of the grave-yards of Medina or Mecca heard the voices of two persons who were being tortured in their graves. The Prophet said, “These two persons are being tortured not for a major sin (to avoid).” The Prophet then added, “Yes! (they are being tortured for a major sin). Indeed, one of them never saved himself from being soiled with his urine while the other used to go about with calumnies (to make enmity between friends). Sahih Bukhari, vol. 1, book 4, hadith no. 215

      So allah punishes people for peeing improperly, soiling themselves (which is unfair for disabled people) and according to muhammad improper urination is a common reason why people end up in hell.

      Narrated ‘Abdullah: It was mentioned before the Prophet that there was a man who slept the night till morning (after sunrise). The Prophet said, “He is a man in whose ears (or ear) Satan had urinated. Sahih Bukhari, Book 54, Hadith 492

      Narrated Abu Huraira:
      The Prophet said, “If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 516)

      For this to be true means satan is omnipresent. So muhammad ascribed an attribute of God to satan thus committing shirk and making him an idolater.

      Narrated Abu Huraira: “Allah’s Apostle said, “If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for the disease). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673)

      That would mean that the special healing wing contains the cure for tuberculosis, anthrax, malaria etc but it doesn’t. So muhammad was wrong. And pathogens don’t only stay on one wing, they are found on both wings. So here’s an example of the scientific innacuracies of the hadith.

      Here’s another example –

      Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

      Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: ‘Do you know where this sets?’ I replied: ‘Allah and his Apostle know best.’ He said: ‘It sets in a spring of warm water.’

      There are no people near the setting place of the sun because the sun doesn’t have a place where it sets. If this hadith were reliable then we would have to believe that the sun is small enough to fit in a muddy spring.
      If Allah wanted to say that Dhul-Qarnain thought/perceived the reflection of the sun setting in a muddy spring then surah 18.86 is not clear because it doesnt say that Dhul-Qarnain saw the “reflection” of the sun setting and thus the quran is false because it claims to be the clear speech of Allah. And Muhammad’s interpretation would be wrong because he said that the sun does indeed set in a muddy spring. 

      You would have to believe that its good to force people to convert to islam –
      Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat. And Quran 9.29 says you are to do the same and fight me instead of reasoning with me over the internet because you’re in the majority and I dont believe in Allah.

      You would also have to affirm wife beating is morally acceptable –

      Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!
      ~ Bukhari vol. 7, # 715

      Sahih Muslim #2127:
      When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me… he said: ‘Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me?’ I said: ‘Yes.’ He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: ‘Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?’

      Having intercourse with prebuscent child brides is fine –

      Bukhari vol. 7, #65: “Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: “I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).””

      So surely you dont think that the Hadith are authentic…

      Like

  12. Pk

    My gospels were revealed by your Allah so if they are unclear then you can blame Allah for that. Quran 29:46 “And do not argue with the People of the Scripture (the Jews and Christians) except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.”
    5.47 “Let the followers of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by Allah has revealed they are no better than those who rebel.”
    5.68 “You (Jews and Christians) have nothing to stand upon unless you stand upon what has been sent down to you”

    The syrophonecian woman did have faith so Jesus tested how strong it was and to see if she would keep her faith despite trials. When I said he didn’t reject her I meant he didnt let her go home empty handed her faith endured to the end therefore Jesus gave her what she wanted.
    God does test Jews. Deuteronomy 13:1-4 ““If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, “Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

    1Timothy is not a forgery, you made that claim with no reason to back it up. Scholars consider the whole bible to be forgery they consider your quran to be forgery when muhammad splits the moon in half, that an angel visited him in a cave, that the Crucifixion of Jesus never happened since the quran is written 600yrs after the event when all the eye witnesses had died. Scholars say that this is stuff that muslims invented. But we believe in the supernatural so we can reject what the scholars say. So 1Timothy 5.18 is valid and it quotes Luke 10.7 therefore Luke predates Paul. Agree?

    Luke may not have been the first to draw up an account I’m sure there were many people recording the events of Jesus’ life. I simply claimed that he wrote about Jesus before Paul did.

    You have to define “quotes” because what I’m referring to is 1Timothy 5.18 where Paul writes: “for the scripture says “the labourer deserves his wages” and “thou shalt not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain”” the scripture is luke 10.7 and Deuteronomy 25:4 so i wouldnt say that Luke quoted Mark or Matthew since he doesnt write “scripture says Jesus did ___” so it seems Luke is writing what he saw and learned from eye witnesses and they did the same thus their accounts match not necessarily because they quote each other but because they are writing accounts about the same event.

    As for the 1Cor 11 it depends on your translation but yeah it was probably a direct revelation from the lord but Luke has the same wording for the broken body and Luke’s gospel is also revelation from the lord so he likely quotes that part and has direct revelation for the 2nd part to get the full harmonised picture from 4 perspectives.

    As pertaining to John 5 of course people visited the ruins of the pool but the key word is “ruins” I.e it wasn’t ruined during the composition of John’s gospel. He’s referring to both the sheep gate and the pool as nehemiah says. I guess the word gate though not in the greek aa indicated by the italics is implied as per nehemiahs description of Solomons temple. There wasnt any such in tact pool or gate or temple after the destruction of Jerusalem yet he writes as though they were in tact so he must have written before 70AD. If it was written after he would have said “there was by the Sheep __ a pool which was destroyed and is now a ruins that people visit”

    Like

    1. You have been refuted on what the Quran says about the (true) Gospel and the (true) Torah. Repeating the same polemic over and over again does not change facts. God revealed the Gospel, not the anonymous rants of 4 guys who copied each other and also made up their own versions as they saw fit.

      “The syrophonecian woman did have faith so Jesus tested how strong it was and to see if she would keep her faith despite trials. When I said he didn’t reject her I meant he didnt let her go home empty handed her faith endured to the end therefore Jesus gave her what she wanted.
      God does test Jews. Deuteronomy 13:1-4 ““If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, “Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.””

      This is not an equitable test. The Jews are not made to grovel before Gentiles to prove their faith. Why would a Gentile be forced to grovel before Jews to prove her faith. Come on. You know this was wrong. You just don’t want to admit it. Luke saw the unfairness and injustice. That explains why he omitted the story.

      “1Timothy is not a forgery, you made that claim with no reason to back it up. Scholars consider the whole bible to be forgery they consider your quran to be forgery when muhammad splits the moon in half, that an angel visited him in a cave, that the Crucifixion of Jesus never happened since the quran is written 600yrs after the event when all the eye witnesses had died. Scholars say that this is stuff that muslims invented. But we believe in the supernatural so we can reject what the scholars say. So 1Timothy 5.18 is valid and it quotes Luke 10.7 therefore Luke predates Paul. Agree?”

      Going on ridiculous tangents and rants about scholars or the Quran does not change the fact that 1 Timothy is a forgery. Even if it wasn’t a forgery, just because it quotes a part of one measly verse which happens to be in Luke’s gospel does not prove that Paul was using Luke. Paul could have been using another source, perhaps an oral tradition. One possibility is just as likely as the other. Agree? It does not prove anything. Why didn’t Paul quote from Luke’s gospel more extensively if he had access to it? This would have been the EARLIEST account of Jesus’ ministry. Paul would have been crazy not to use it more often.

      Even so, that it is a forgery is a matter of virtual consensus, so I have no reason to even pay 1 Timothy any mind.

      “Luke may not have been the first to draw up an account I’m sure there were many people recording the events of Jesus’ life. I simply claimed that he wrote about Jesus before Paul did.”

      But if Luke predates even Paul, then his would have been the first canonical account. And yet he admits that others wrote their own accounts and that he used. He even argues for their authenticity! Look at what he said:

      “Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.

      He said that these other accounts were “just as they were handed down to us”. Where are these other written accounts? Why have they not survived? The only explanation is that Luke was referring to either Mark or Matthew or both, since he extensively quotes and edits both. Therefore, his gospel came after them and could not possibly have predated Paul’s epistles.

      “You have to define “quotes” because what I’m referring to is 1Timothy 5.18 where Paul writes: “for the scripture says “the labourer deserves his wages” and “thou shalt not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain”” the scripture is luke 10.7 and Deuteronomy 25:4 so i wouldnt say that Luke quoted Mark or Matthew since he doesnt write “scripture says Jesus did ___” so it seems Luke is writing what he saw and learned from eye witnesses and they did the same thus their accounts match not necessarily because they quote each other but because they are writing accounts about the same event.”

      He didn’t have to say “scripture says…” He said at the beginning that he knew of other accounts. What other accounts were there?

      “As for the 1Cor 11 it depends on your translation but yeah it was probably a direct revelation from the lord but Luke has the same wording for the broken body and Luke’s gospel is also revelation from the lord so he likely quotes that part and has direct revelation for the 2nd part to get the full harmonised picture from 4 perspectives.”

      This is the typical Christian response to the contradictions in their own book. Oh, you have to look at all the books to get “the full harmonised picture from 4 perspectives”, you say. Why? Why couldn’t they just give the same account without you having to piece them together like some jigsaw puzzle?

      Why didn’t Paul correctly quote Luke IF (and that is a BIG if) he was actually quoting from Luke’s gospel? You were the one who claimed 1 Corinthians 11 quotes the gospel of Luke. I deflated that claim by showing that he did a really bad job of quoting Luke if that is what he was actually doing. So what did Jesus really say? Did he “do this in remembrance of me” or did he say “which is poured out for you”? Paul said one thing. Luke said the other. And it just so happens that Luke’s version agrees with…drum roll please…Mark and Matthew (mostly):

      Mark – “This is my blood of the[c] covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.”

      Matthew – “This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

      But as you know, with the gospels, nothing is simple, for even HERE, Luke does not completely agree with the sources he copied:

      Luke – “And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
      “Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

      Mark: “While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it. “This is my blood of the[c] covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.”

      Matthew: “While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

      We can see how Luke “updates” the last supper speech with his own additions.

      “As pertaining to John 5 of course people visited the ruins of the pool but the key word is “ruins” I.e it wasn’t ruined during the composition of John’s gospel. He’s referring to both the sheep gate and the pool as nehemiah says. I guess the word gate though not in the greek aa indicated by the italics is implied as per nehemiahs description of Solomons temple. There wasnt any such in tact pool or gate or temple after the destruction of Jerusalem yet he writes as though they were in tact so he must have written before 70AD. If it was written after he would have said “there was by the Sheep __ a pool which was destroyed and is now a ruins that people visit””

      Isn’t it ironic how you add to the text what is not there? This behavior actually confirms what the Quran says about some of the Jews and Christians: that they change the text. I am not saying John 5 is scripture of course, but it is ironic how you try to twist the text to support your agenda.

      You admit the word “gate” is not there, and yet by some clairvoyance, you magically know what “John” must have meant! Hallelujah! How convenient! Why does “sola scriptura” go out the window when it doesn’t work for you?

      Why didn’t your supposedly “inspired” gospel clearly say “Sheep GATE”? How hard was it to use the Greek word for “gate”?

      Also, the phrase “there is in Jerusalem” could simply be a “historical present”. In other words, the author was referring to the city as it was before its destruction, but writing in his own time.

      Like

      1. stewjo004

        @ Pk

        As QB said copying and pasting from AnsweringIslam.com is not going to help you here. The most of your argumentation has been explained and refuted so I will not repeat myself and move on as we’re literally going in circles of you agreeing and then bringing up the same argument again like I forgot my last answer I guess in an attempt to trip me up idk.

        So my follow up post will be simple. I noticed you wrote ALL that yet none of it was relevant to my point. So I’ll ask again waht was Moses(as) reading from right here?

        “Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.” (Al Taurat ?:?)

        Where is this body of revelation?

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Pk

        Theres nothing wrong with citing scholars. I believe Shamoun is a great scholar. You believe Ehrman is a great scholar. So would it be fair for me to say i wont answer your objection just because your quoting from ehrmanblog.org ?

        You’ll notice that QB actually addresses my points by copying them in the reply and writing a response under them. But you stewjo are not doing that. Go back through the chat youll notice that you havent addressed my objections and questions.

        You asked me about Moses and again im more than happy to answer you, so why have chosen not to answer me when clearly I haven’t agreed with you and its not going in circles because you dont respond to what ive written. For example I asked –
        “Surah 7.157 says “muhammad is mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them (the jews and chrstians)”.
        But here’s the problem he isnt mentioned in our scriptures. Therefore the Quran is wrong and can’t be a criterion.
        Unless I haven’t searched hard enough to find muhammad in the Bible. Can you point me to where the Bible mentions muhamamd?”

        And you replied with –
        “7:157 God isn’t even talking to Christians and Jews He’s speaking to Moses after the children of Israel worshipped the Calf.”

        See you havent actually responded to my question.

        And there are multiple other examples of me asking you about the reliability of the Hadith, Muhammads wives, prostitution, jihad etc etc

        I wasnt trying to trip you up I wrote my response there under the reply button because I thought that would help you get access to it easier.

        So now ill answer your question. I hope you’ll do the same for me.
        You asked –
        “Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.” (Al Taurat ?:?)
        Where is this body of revelation?

        This was revealed in Leviticus 10.3 where Moses restates what the LORD told him directly. Although it parallels what he already said in Exodus 29.43, 19.22 and Leviticus 8.35

        Like

      3. “Theres nothing wrong with citing scholars. I believe Shamoun is a great scholar. You believe Ehrman is a great scholar. So would it be fair for me to say i wont answer your objection just because your quoting from ehrmanblog.org ?”

        LOL!! Are you kidding me? You are comparing Shamoun, a pathetic pseudoscholar whom I have had the pleasure of exposing, to Ehrman? Like Stew said, where are Shamoun’s degrees? What university did he go to? What credentials does he have?

        You might want to read the following articles where I exposed Shamoun’s shoddy research skills:

        https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2019/01/14/the-flat-earth-controversy-analyzing-the-quran-and-the-bible/
        https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/12/07/on-rabbits-and-rumination-a-response-to-christian-interpretations-of-leviticus-115-6/

        Like

    2. “The syrophonecian woman did have faith so Jesus tested how strong it was and to see if she would keep her faith despite trials. When I said he didn’t reject her I meant he didnt let her go home empty handed her faith endured to the end therefore Jesus gave her what she wanted.”

      here you are coming in defese of a sinner who ABUSED and insulted a woman(in public) who gave him a basic PHYSICS lesson on GRAVITY / what it does to food when eat from certain height . jesus DID not think that GENTILES were capable of faith and in private he tells his JEWISH pals HOW to AVOID .

      his pals TELL him to help her, then he replies “i have come ONLY for the LOST sheep”
      he is ADDRESSING their request, but prior to this he avoids addressing the non-jewish woman UNTIL she begs LIKE A female dog.

      he says “it is NOT RIGHT TO TAKE the childrens bread (HOLY) and cast it TO your DAUGHTER (little DOG)

      jesus your criminal unhealthy “saviour” who didn’t WASH his hands BEFORE meals TOLD the woman

      “ONLY the lost sheep gets the holy stuff ”

      she just WANTED a piece /crumb

      jesus loveD jewish KIDS , not LITTLE dogs/gentile YOUNGSTERS. i guess his father from ot gave him this hatred after what he did to AMALEKITE children, what do you think?

      look , after she SCHOOLS jesus , he thinks

      “hey, she just OPENLY admitted her ILL daughter is a GENTILE dog and that ISRAEL are her MASTERS and that she comes to us as a SLAVE”

      yes CHILDREN ARE THE masters

      she a SLAVE

      and if slave goes by what the OPPRESSOR said and makes oppressor happy , then slave gets a piece

      MORE confirmation that marks gospel thought that the woman and her daughter were ANIMALS

      notice that mark has “let the CHILDREN EAT first….”

      why first? because in that culture ANIMALS eat LATER , humans FIRST.

      WHAT happen compassion, mercy and love?

      the “jewish” gospel COMPLETELY changes the story. it OMITS marks “first” and PAINTS a clear picture that the woman AINT getting no piece, first or last.

      “i have COME ONLY to…”

      “IT IS NOT RIGHT to take the childrens bread…..”

      you don’t case HOLY stuff to NON-HUMANS!

      so x called someones mother a “little bitch”

      then boasted

      “hey i took your moms youngster to the hospital in my ferrari f40 , after i called her and her little one “little DOGS,” but i did not GIVE her a WORD of GUIDANCE on how to live holy life, thats for the lost sheep.

      this rude and sickening behavior is suppose to come from the guy who was supposed to bring the “new covenant”

      Liked by 1 person

    3. “The reason why scholars say that the gospels were written in the 80’s or 90’s is because they think its impossible for Jesus to predict the destruction of Jerusalem so accurately in Luke 20-21 , Matt 24 and Mark 13.”

      scholars BELIEVE that their are HINTS in the gospel of mark which indicate that the TEMPLE has ALREADY been destroyed

      and

      “… there were several Judeans in antiquity who predicted that the Jewish Temple would be destroyed, which eventually took place during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. But since such apocalyptic predictions were commonly made, some people were eventually bound to get such a prediction right, especially since this prediction was not really a true guess, but more of an educated guess influenced by surrounding circumstances, such as political tensions with Rome.

      https://celsus.blog/2015/12/27/review-of-craig-keener-miracles-part-1-what-evidence-of-miracles-are-skeptics-searching-for/

      its possible .

      Liked by 1 person

  13. Pk

    You have been refuted on what the Quran says about the (true) Gospel and the (true) Torah. Repeating the same polemic over and over again does not change facts. God revealed the Gospel, not the anonymous rants of 4 guys who copied each other and also made up their own versions as they saw fit.

    Actually I dont think I have. The best you’ve come up with is “His words are actually His decrees” but I’ve shown mulitple quranic verses which speak of Jews and Christians possessing a book during the life of muhammad.
    This book was revealed by God according to the quran.
    The quran refers to this book sometimes eg Surah 48:29 – “On their faces (of the Muslim believers) are their marks, the traces of their bowing (in worship). This IS their likeness in the Torah; and their likeness in the Gospel IS like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong. It then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, and delights the sower.” This verse seems to be alluding to Jesus’ words in Mark 4:26-28
    And again Surah 21:105 – “Before this We WROTE in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): `My servants, the righteous, shall inherit the earth.'” This is a direct quotation from Psalm 37:29
    The copies we have of the Bible match the words found before, during and after the advent of muhammad.
    Therefore this book is the Bible.
    Thus the Quran affirms the reliability and truth of the Bible. And yet the Quran contradicts the Bible. Therefore the Quran is unreliable and false.

    This (Deut13:1-4) is not an equitable test. The Jews are not made to grovel before Gentiles to prove their faith. Why would a Gentile be forced to grovel before Jews to prove her faith. Come on. You know this was wrong. You just don’t want to admit it. Luke saw the unfairness and injustice. That explains why he omitted the story.

    I admit it is sad, but so is the fact that God allows child molestation, rape, abortion, jihad, prostitution, Nikah Mut’ah, terrorism, marriage of men with prepubescent girls etc but He is the standard of morality so I can’t judge him.
    But the jews would be grovelling. I mean image if I came to your house and said “I am a prophet” then I said “God prove that Im your prophet by making me levitate” then i levitated. Then I turned stones into bread, split the moon in half, made fire come down from heaven or did some other cool miracle you would surely believe i am a prophet. But then to find out that im not would truly make you grovel.

    Even if it wasn’t a forgery, just because it quotes a part of one measly verse which happens to be in Luke’s gospel does not prove that Paul was using Luke. Paul could have been using another source, perhaps an oral tradition. One possibility is just as likely as the other. Agree? It does not prove anything. Why didn’t Paul quote from Luke’s gospel more extensively if he had access to it? This would have been the EARLIEST account of Jesus’ ministry. Paul would have been crazy not to use it more often.

    1) Its not by chance that its found in Luke’s gospel because Paul wrote “the SCRIPTURE says: ‘the labourer deserves his wages'” see he quotes it as a ‘scripture’ i.e written words of God not by accident.
    2) I disagree. It couldnt have been oral tradition because he quotes it as a ‘scripture’ i.e tue written word of God
    3) We aren’t told why he didnt quote from Luke more extensively. But he doesnt need to becaue got direct “revelations from the Lord” (Galatians 1) and direct “commandments from the Lord” (1Cor 14)
    4) Yes luke is early but we are not told if its the earliest. We are only told that it predaes Paul.

    Consensus fallacy^ if everyone agreed that muhammad didnt live in mecca would that make it true?
    But if appealing to consensus is a valid method of searching for the truth, then the quran is not the word of God because historians have a consensus that Jesus was crucified.

    He said that these other accounts were “just as they were handed down to us”. Where are these other written accounts? Why have they not survived? The only explanation is that Luke was referring to either Mark or Matthew or both, since he extensively quotes and edits both.

    The accounts were eye witness testimony he includes the accounts in his account so there’s no need to look for them since they can be found in his gospel.

    Therefore, his gospel came after them and could not possibly have predated Paul’s epistles.
    I still believe 1Timothy 5.18 proves Luke predates Paul. You’re proof that 1Timothy is a forgery was a consensus fallacy. So I dont accept that its a forgery sorry.

    This is the typical Christian response to the contradictions in their own book. Oh, you have to look at all the books to get “the full harmonised picture from 4 perspectives”, you say. Why? Why couldn’t they just give the same account without you having to piece them together like some jigsaw puzzle?

    True they do seem contradictory on the surface but they can be harmonised. Eg 
    Mark 15:7 and Luke 23:19 say that Barabbas was a murderer. But John 18:40 says that Barabbas was a robber.
    So this could be a contradiction i.e was barabbas a murderer or a robber? Or have we got 3 perspectives of the same event which gives us the fuller understanding that barabbas was both a murderer and a robber. I think we’ve got latter.
    And whats more valid 1 testimony of 1 witness or 4 testimonies of 4 witnesses???

    Why didn’t Paul correctly quote Luke IF (and that is a BIG if) he was actually quoting from Luke’s gospel? You were the one who claimed 1 Corinthians 11 quotes the gospel of Luke. I deflated that claim by showing that he did a really bad job of quoting Luke if that is what he was actually doing.

    Paul quoted Luke 10.7 correctly in 1Tim 5:18
    I will conceede however that 1Cor 11 does not use the phrase “scripture says” or “it is written” so 1Cor 11 is probably a direct revelation from the Lord Jesus about the Last Supper and not a quote from Luke’s gospel.

    So what did Jesus really say? Did he “do this in remembrance of me” or did he say “which is poured out for you”? Paul said one thing. Luke said the other. And it just so happens that Luke’s version agrees with…drum roll please…Mark and Matthew (mostly):

    He said both. So the whole quote is “In the same manner He also took the cup after supper and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying ‘Drink from it, all of you. This cup is the new covenant in My blood which is poured out for you, for many, for the forgiveness of sins. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.'”

    Also, the phrase “there is in Jerusalem” could simply be a “historical present”. In other words, the author was referring to the city as it was before its destruction, but writing in his own time.
    You admit the word “gate” is not there, and yet by some clairvoyance, you magically know what “John” must have meant! Hallelujah! How convenient! Why does “sola scriptura” go out the window when it doesn’t work for you? Why didn’t your supposedly “inspired” gospel clearly say “Sheep GATE”? How hard was it to use the Greek word for “gate”?

    John didn’t use historical present in his gospel or his letters so you’re making an unfounded assumption. He always used the tense that was relevant to the time and context.
    I am using sola scriptura – “gate” is implied by the description of the temple in other scriptures such as John 10:1-3 , Nehemiah 3:1 and 1Kings 6.

    Isn’t it ironic how you add to the text what is not there? This behavior actually confirms what the Quran says about some of the Jews and Christians: that they change the text. I am not saying John 5 is scripture of course, but it is ironic how you try to twist the text to support your agenda.

    The reason why scholars say that the gospels were written in the 80’s or 90’s is because they think its impossible for Jesus to predict the destruction of Jerusalem so accurately in Luke 20-21 , Matt 24 and Mark 13. Thus they conclude that the gospels were written after it was destroyed. But you believe that prophecy is real so you have no reason to think that they were written after 70AD.

    The intact Sheep Gate, the pool, the present tense and the fact that John and none of the other apostles don’t speak of one of the top most important events of Jewish history – the destruction of their temple is proof they wrote before 70AD.

    You’re trying to discredit the bible by saying its written too late and way too long after the death burial and resurrection of Christ but the quran is written over 600 yeaes after the death burial and resurrection of Christ. So if we have to throw away the bible then we have to bury the quran.

    I know you disagree that John 5 is scripture because you disagree with what Muhammad taught:

    “Bring the Tawrah to me.” He (Muhammad) was brought the Tawrah and he removed the pillow from under him and placed the Tawrah on it, saying…
    “I trust you and He Who revealed it to you.” 
    These Hadiths state that the Messenger of Allah issued a decision that conforms with the ruling in the Tawrah, not to honor the Jews in what they believe in, for the Jews were commanded to follow the Law of Muhammad only. Rather, the Prophet did this because Allah commanded him to do so. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38 No. 4434)

    That is why the Quran says “How do they come to you (Muhammad) while they have the Torah. In which IS the plain decision of Allah” ~ Surah 5.43
    If the Torah was corrupt this verse should say “come to muhammad because the Torah has been corrupted, in it WAS the plain decision of Allah but its now a corrupt book”

    So the true Torah was not corrupted it was preserved –

    And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation — so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know — With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.” S. 16:43-44

    “And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not?” S. 21:7

    – so Allah sent revelation to people (i.e the jews and christians) before Muhammad and he calls this revelation ‘the Reminder’

    “Truly we have sent down the Reminder, and verily We will guard (preserve) it. S. 15:9-10

    – Thus according to the quran allah has preserved our revelation.

    And has preserved the Gospel which was being copied under the direction of God:

    Narrated ‘Aisha:
    Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father’s brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the GospelS in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 111)

    Narrated ‘Aisha:
    The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the GospelS in Arabic… (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605)

    5.47 “let the followers of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by it they are no better than those who rebel” but if they havent been preserved all muslims are condemned to hell. Because according to you we cant judge by the Gospel since we know longer have it.
    But in truth the scripture cannot be changed – Surah 18.27 “And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.”

    Therefore its been preserved. And that is why you are commanded to “believe in them” (4:136) not “parts of them” (2:85 – “What!? Do you believe in part of the book and reject part? Whosoever among you does this, his reward shall be none other than disgrace in the present life and in the Day of Judgement they shall be cast into a more awful torment.”)

    Like

    1. “I admit it is sad, but so is the fact that God allows child molestation, rape, abortion, jihad, prostitution, Nikah Mut’ah, terrorism, marriage of men with prepubescent girls etc but He is the standard of morality so I can’t judge him.”

      Another typical apologetic response. Your ignorance of Islam aside, the fact is that your god allowed the killing of infants, and you have the gall to call it “justice”. so whatever your ridiculous views about Islam are, the fact is that your Bible, your religion and your god contain great evil that no reasonable person could accept. So please keep the rubbish about jihad and so forth to yourself.

      “But the jews would be grovelling. I mean image if I came to your house and said “I am a prophet” then I said “God prove that Im your prophet by making me levitate” then i levitated. Then I turned stones into bread, split the moon in half, made fire come down from heaven or did some other cool miracle you would surely believe i am a prophet. But then to find out that im not would truly make you grovel.”

      This is such a pathetic response. The test in Deuteronomy is regarding a prophet. The test in Mark and Matthew was regarding a random woman, who happened to be a Gentile, who already believed. Your god saw fit to force her to grovel and beg for scraps, and this was supposedly a sign of her “faith”. What kind of religion is this?

      “1) Its not by chance that its found in Luke’s gospel because Paul wrote “the SCRIPTURE says: ‘the labourer deserves his wages’” see he quotes it as a ‘scripture’ i.e written words of God not by accident.”

      You have to define what Paul’s view of “scripture” was. He also quoted variant “scripture”. For example, Romans 10:11 states:

      “As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.””

      Where is this found in the “scripture”? According to the NIV, it’s a quote of Isaiah 28:16, but there’s a caveat. It’s only found in the Septuagint. This is what Isaiah 28:16 says:

      “So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

      “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,
      a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
      the one who relies on it
      will never be stricken with panic.”

      Nothing there even remotely similar to what Paul “quoted”. Paul was clearly as confused about what constituted “scripture” as you guys are even in modern times. You can’t even agree with Catholics and Orthodox Christians about your so-called “canon”. Again, what kind of religion is this?

      “2) I disagree. It couldnt have been oral tradition because he quotes it as a ‘scripture’ i.e tue written word of God”

      Another non-sequitur. Who says that “scripture” automatically means a written word? If what you say is true, then tell me which “written” scripture was John referring to when he wrote this:

      “Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” (John 7:38).

      I think you need to do some genuine research, because you are severely misinformed about a lot of things.

      “3) We aren’t told why he didnt quote from Luke more extensively. But he doesnt need to becaue got direct “revelations from the Lord” (Galatians 1) and direct “commandments from the Lord” (1Cor 14)”

      Your excuses don’t explain anything. Think about it. If, as you say, Luke predated Paul’s epistles, and Paul was aware of the gospel (and the other gospels were not yet written), then wouldn’t Paul have quoted more extensively from it? That would have been the ONLY written source at the time concerning the life of Jesus! And yet, you want me to believe that Paul managed to quote one small line from the ENTIRE gospel? I am sure you can see why that is ridiculous.

      “4) Yes luke is early but we are not told if its the earliest. We are only told that it predaes Paul.”

      So then who was the earliest? Did Paul know these earlier “scriptures”?

      “Consensus fallacy^ if everyone agreed that muhammad didnt live in mecca would that make it true?
      But if appealing to consensus is a valid method of searching for the truth, then the quran is not the word of God because historians have a consensus that Jesus was crucified.”

      Another typical response. Just saying it’s a “fallacy” does not make it so. If you think the consensus is wrong, then you need to prove it. Simply dismissing it as a “fallacy” does nothing.

      “The accounts were eye witness testimony he includes the accounts in his account so there’s no need to look for them since they can be found in his gospel. ”

      WOW! How convenient! So were just supposed to believe Luke and take him at his word, huh?

      But your feeble excuse aside, I will ask the question again: where are these “written” accounts?

      “I still believe 1Timothy 5.18 proves Luke predates Paul. You’re proof that 1Timothy is a forgery was a consensus fallacy. So I dont accept that its a forgery sorry.”

      I couldn’t care less. I go by the evidence and the consensus is based on the evidence.

      “True they do seem contradictory on the surface but they can be harmonised. Eg
      Mark 15:7 and Luke 23:19 say that Barabbas was a murderer. But John 18:40 says that Barabbas was a robber.
      So this could be a contradiction i.e was barabbas a murderer or a robber? Or have we got 3 perspectives of the same event which gives us the fuller understanding that barabbas was both a murderer and a robber. I think we’ve got latter.
      And whats more valid 1 testimony of 1 witness or 4 testimonies of 4 witnesses???”

      If you think they can be harmonized, then go ahead and try. Don’t give me some other example. That’s just a distraction.

      “Paul quoted Luke 10.7 correctly in 1Tim 5:18
      I will conceede however that 1Cor 11 does not use the phrase “scripture says” or “it is written” so 1Cor 11 is probably a direct revelation from the Lord Jesus about the Last Supper and not a quote from Luke’s gospel. ”

      But if Paul did partially quote Luke in 1 Corinthians 11, but then opted for a different version for the next part, then the only logical conclusion would be that Paul either was using a different source (not Luke) OR if he was using Luke’s gospel, then he found it necessary to change Luke’s version somewhat. Either way, it does not sit well for your theory.

      “He said both. So the whole quote is “In the same manner He also took the cup after supper and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying ‘Drink from it, all of you. This cup is the new covenant in My blood which is poured out for you, for many, for the forgiveness of sins. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.’””

      So let me get this straight. You think that the gospel writers all decided to give a partial and garbled version of Jesus’ speech. Why? Were they all thinking “hopefully somebody else will write another gospel and fill in the details of what Jesus said”? Why didn’t they just give the full speech without quoting him only partially? You must see how ridiculous this sounds. I cannot understand how Christians have managed to convince themselves that this somehow makes perfect sense.

      “ohn didn’t use historical present in his gospel or his letters so you’re making an unfounded assumption. He always used the tense that was relevant to the time and context.
      I am using sola scriptura – “gate” is implied by the description of the temple in other scriptures such as John 10:1-3 , Nehemiah 3:1 and 1Kings 6.”

      Actually, you’re the one making an unfounded assumption. First of all, there are similar uses in other sources. For example, David Croteau points out that Josephus (who clearly wrote after the destruction of Jerusalem) referred to Bethany as if it still existed in his time.

      Second, Croteau identifies John 5:2 as “probable for inclusion” into the category of “historical presents” (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/58821862.pdf)

      Your scripture fails to mention anything about a “gate”. Therefore, you are throwing “sola scriptura” out the window because it is inconvenient at the moment.

      “The reason why scholars say that the gospels were written in the 80’s or 90’s is because they think its impossible for Jesus to predict the destruction of Jerusalem so accurately in Luke 20-21 , Matt 24 and Mark 13. Thus they conclude that the gospels were written after it was destroyed. But you believe that prophecy is real so you have no reason to think that they were written after 70AD. ”

      That might be one reason, but it is not the only reason, so nice try.

      “The intact Sheep Gate, the pool, the present tense and the fact that John and none of the other apostles don’t speak of one of the top most important events of Jewish history – the destruction of their temple is proof they wrote before 70AD.”

      Circular arguments and non-sequitur…this is what you do. Again, there is nothing in the text about any “gate”. The evidence shows that “John” was referring to the pool, which was rediscovered by archaeologists in the 19th century, so it was still known to people in John’s time.

      “You’re trying to discredit the bible by saying its written too late and way too long after the death burial and resurrection of Christ but the quran is written over 600 yeaes after the death burial and resurrection of Christ. So if we have to throw away the bible then we have to bury the quran.”

      Another attempted distraction. But, let’s refute that line of reasoning. Why not?

      The Quran is the word of God. It is not bound by time. Your gospels and your Bible were written by men. No comparison whatsoever. So yes, I will reject your Bible because it has proven time and again that it is an unreliable and contradictory book. The Quran, on the other hand, has proven that it is from a divine source.

      ““Bring the Tawrah to me.” He (Muhammad) was brought the Tawrah and he removed the pillow from under him and placed the Tawrah on it, saying…
      “I trust you and He Who revealed it to you.”
      These Hadiths state that the Messenger of Allah issued a decision that conforms with the ruling in the Tawrah, not to honor the Jews in what they believe in, for the Jews were commanded to follow the Law of Muhammad only. Rather, the Prophet did this because Allah commanded him to do so. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38 No. 4434)”

      Again, blind repetition. Didn’t Stew already refute this? This hadith is considered weak by the majority of scholars.

      Everything else you wrote is also repetition of the same tired old argument.

      Like

    2. I claimed –
      ” He actually said to the Jews: “the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls””

      You replied by saying –
      the verse is about WORKS and what to eat and what NOT to eat. it never says BLOOD is the only way and isaiah, jeremiah and amos realized that, thats why they say that god wants works /obediance/prayer……

      QUOTE :
      I say in response to that –
      God does want obedience but there are instances when you have failed to obey that is why you need atonement.

      ////

      when you failed to obey , your jewish god says that there are DIFFERENt ways to Achieve “atonement”

      WORKS
      prayer
      RITUALS
      giving yhwh QUALITY vegetables
      KILLING IDOLATER

      AND TO DESTROY your religion, god tells people in the OT THAT THEY CAN RULE OVER SIN, SO NOT ONLY DOES HE WANT OBEDIANCE, BUT HE EVEN KNOWS THAT PEOPLE CAN OBEY HIM. THATS WHY HE gave his jewish LAWS AND RITUALS to sinners. he even KNEW they were SINNERS before he gave them .

      if you have FAILED to obey, God OFFERS DIFFERENT ways to get in his good books according to the ot, and roman shedding of jesus was NOT on the list.

      AND EVERY TIME jews “FAILED TO OBEY” he tells them to GO BACK DOING HIS LAWS AND RITUALS!!!!!

      your jewish god was HAPPY with the offerings of ANIMALS or even QUALITY vegetables. meaning your pagan jesus “divine blood” was NOT on the MENU

      meaning yhwh WANTED HARD WORK!

      QUOTE :

      Quote:
      As one other commenter noticed, the difference is not in the kind of sacrifice offered but the perceived quality: Cain brings מִפְּרִ֧י הָֽאֲדָמָ֛ה “some of the fruits of the ground” while Abel brings מִבְּכֹר֥וֹת צֹאנ֖וֹ וּמֵֽחֶלְבֵהֶ֑ן “some of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat.” The difference is in Cain not offering the firstfruits, while Abel has offered the firstborn. Apparently, offering the firstborn/firstfruits (the Hebrew word is the same for both categories) was considered such common sense that it isn’t even mentioned as having been commanded to Cain and Abel; the point would have been understood by the first hearers of the story: when you don’t give the best for an offering, it won’t be accepted.

      Quote:
      Almost. Cain messed up his sacrifice not because he brought plant matter, but because he didn’t bring the firstfruits of the plant matter, which were considered the best in that culture, and to have in their very existence belonged to God, like the firstborn animals, which Abel sacrificed. Throughout the sacrifice laws described in Exodus through Deuteronomy, while animal sacrifice is often mentioned, there are still sacrifices originating with plant matter. The most interesting account of some of these are found in Leviticus 23, where a sheaf of the first grain to ripen is to be brought to the sanctuary as an offering. So, if it’s seen as an etiological tale, it’s the etiology of the preference for firstfruits/firstborn in sacrifices, and that these are to be devoted to God rather than kept for private use.

      The common misperception here is “God prefers animal sacrifice” when in reality the story is about “God prefers quality sacrifice.” The key is that mention of בכר “firstborn” in the story itself in relation to Abel’s sacrifice but lacking from Cain’s. The idea that the story describes a divine preference for animal sacrifice is a misinterpretation, one that occurs due to unfamiliarity with the importance of the language involved and the culture in which it originated.

      yhwh aint crosstian, yhwh didn’t know about your religion.

      jesus NOT ON THE MENU MAN!

      “The verse I quoted is leviticus 17:11 check the context for yourself and you’ll see that after discussing deit God declares “it is the blood which makes atonement for your souls””

      the contexts is about DO’S AND DON’T AND PROCESSES and “blood makes atonement” means THROUGH YOUR HARD WORK I.E THE BLOOD IS A REPRESENTATION OF YOUR WORKS . the blood aint got NO MAGICAL powers

      yhwh never had human blood, pigs blood or dogs blood on the menu, it was specific animal he was interested in. he would have puked at the thought of human blood “atoning for sins”

      QUOTE :
      ‘So what if your in a different country or u dont have a temple?’

      1John 2.2 says “Christ died for the sins of the whole world.” So if you’re in a different country or you don’t have a temple what you need to do is put your trust in Christ then God will forgive your sins.

      see what you have done to sin? you have REDUCED it to “put trust in the shedding of christ for your sins”
      you really don’t care about sin, but only pay lip service to it.

      I WAS ASKING about the jewish people, when they were far away, poor or their temple was DESTROYED, they knew NOTHING about christ, but knew about PRAYER, works and rituals. it is THESE which reconciled them with their god.

      ‘God absolutely needs no one to be sent to die for sins. he does not need jesus to be MERCIFUL and i do not need jesus to SEEK god. I ask God directly.’

      “No you dont seek God. You seek allah. And whats interesting is that your saying you dont believe the revelation in my scriptures and you distinguish Allah from the God of the Bible, yet your quran says the complete opposite.”

      the Quran says that ALLAH is son of NOBODY. The Quran says that WHEN ALLAH SPOKE TO moses, ALLAH said “i am ALLAH….”

      yhwh is the son of EL ELYON
      yhwh says he called himself “yhwh” and was UNKNWON as yhwh to the patriarchs.
      yhwh regrets his own ACTIONS

      ” It says muslims have to believe in what has been revealed to the jews and christians and that the muslim God and the Judeo Christian God is the same one.”

      YES , “the same one ACCORDING TO/THROUGH THE QURANIC LENS”

      HAVE YOU READ ANY RECENT ACADEMIC PAPERS ON QURANS VIEW ON THE BIBLE?

      SCHOLARS NOW SAY THAT THE QURAN IS CHALLENGING BIBLICAL, GNOSTIC, PAULINE VIEWS IN YOUR NT AND EVEN CHALLENGES IT.

      “You can’t get to God without going through Jesus –
      John 14.6 “I [Jesus] am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

      keeping repeating yourself like an IDOLATROUS PARROT who seek to BREAK RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOD AND MAN by making man Seek god through WORSHIPPING a wall and barrier.

      “God is close to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him sincerely” (Psalm 145:18).

      no jesus, no intermediary required/needed

      ‘We are created weak and one hundred percent u will sin’

      “No we are created by God and everything created by God is good.”

      so sins are good then since sins cannot create themselves.


      If its 100% guaranteed I will sin then I can’t make choices. Do you deny that we have free will?”

      look, did you sin today?

      i am saying human is made in such a way that he may sin ACCIDENTALLY, deliberately , but he CAN NEVER today, tommorow or in future stop sinning UNLESS GOD change him .

      since you have the holy ghost, i will ask

      1. do you sin in thought?
      2. did you sin in action?
      3. did you sin yesterday, today….?

      ‘who said tha t? Why would a “slow to anger”
      “Loving”
      “Kind”
      “Merciful”
      “Forgiving”
      God want to SEND REPENTING servant to hell?
      Is repenting servant EQUAL to non repenting? Is sinless baby equal to sinner?’

      “Because repentance alone cannot atone.”

      yhwh says it does and thats why he says he is merciful and forgiving because he created humans as sinners.

      thats why he is CALLED MERCIFUL

      ” Im going to give an example of why repentance alone is not enough – lets say I bombed the twin towers,

      was arrested by the police, then taken to court and I said to the judge ‘I’m sorry I won’t do it again’ should the judge let me back into society with no punishment?”

      why do crosstians ALWAYS like to use EXTREME EXAMPLES?

      there would be punishment, but in your religion, that guy could get away with PUNISHMENT if he swim in jesus’ blood.

      under torah law yhwh would want the blood of the sinner who bombed the twin towers, he would NOT TRANSFER the sin to ANIMALS.

      under islamic law that guy would BE PUNISHED because GOD says “killing one life is as if one has KILLED THE WHOLE world”

      you
      ‘ezekiel says that wicked who turns from his sin shall save his life’

      Yes he shall and the rest of the verse says “if a wicked man turns from his sins and keeps all my commandments all his sins shall be forgotten and he shall surely live.” You have to turn from sin yes, but you have to keep his commandments,

      “and one of his commandments is believe that Jesus died and rose again for you to be saved. (Romans 10:9-13)”

      you are INTERPOLATING the text like scribes interpolated luke. ezekiel did not MENTION romans 10:9-13

      “I said Jesus made atonement for you to avoid being punished in hell. You replied to this by saying –
      jesus got a short transfer not a permanent one. jesus did not do the time or the quality, he got saved.

      Heres an anology that will better explain –

      QUOTE :
      Imagine you are a 53yr old Jihadist who has been sentenced to prison for sleeping with a 9yr old girl named Aisha. The bail is $1,000,000. You don’t have the money to pay the bail so the officers are about to drag you into prison, but a stranger walks into the court and pays your bail for you. The bail has been paid so the judge won’t punish you. That’s what Jesus did for you.

      so your gods “justice” system works like the analogy of TRANSFERRING MONEY to free from sin which deserve hell LOL

      now lets replace judge with yhwh

      1. 9 year old has not had justice done to her. bribe has been done

      quote :
      Bribe definition is – money or favor given or promised in order to influence the judgment or conduct of a person in a position of trust.

      money is TRANSFERABLE

      jesus helps criminals GET AWAY with crimes by BAILING them out . so he cools down the father by spreading his blood over his (fathers) face every time christian does sins .

      your analogy is good for gangsters and despots. THEIR world EXISTS exactly like your yhwhs.

      ‘Oh….so you do the sins and yoi DESERVE hell but “jUST “god will give u eternal life EVEN if u continue to sin? And god is just? christians STILL sin. and they think they will be GOING heaven even though THEY continue to sin…’

      “No we don’t continue to sin, if you continue in sin then you are not saved (1john 3.8).”

      this is a LIE, every crosstian CONTINUES to sin. are you saying you are sinless “after you are saved” lol?

      “God gives us the grace to resist temptation and he causes us to live in holiness. 1John 2:4 -“whoever claims to know Jesus but does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them””

      bullshit! even with the grace and everything crosstians STILL CONTINUE TO sin. inwardly and openly.

      ‘its not about what I trust its WHAT GOD SAID TO DO and if God said do GOOD deeds , then i TRUST GOD’


      How many good deeds do you have to do before allah will accept you?”

      God says “FOR THEM IS FORGIVENESS AND GREAT REWARD….”

      FORGIVENESS precedes reward, which means your nonsense of “how many before ALLAH will accept you” is not to be asked.

      GOD says BELIEVER IS already ACCEPTED AND forgiven and one who constantly turns to ALLAH IS WHAT Allah wants.

      in your religion you got a BAILING for every sin that you do.

      so if you lusted, jesus bailed ya .
      if you bad mouth your mum, jesus bailed ya.

      which means crosstian can go on living under getting bailed because yhwh does not consider the deed of the crosstian, but he consider the bailing of jesus.

      ‘islam says God forgives and can PUNISH in this life for CONTINUED sin. In islam it is the criminal who will pay for his sins and if he repents and stops wrong then god will forgive. It is islam which is JUST and islam never says that merciful God says sins =punishment in hell’

      “But not all people get punished in this life.

      For example Muhammad got away with many sins –

      1) Murdering thousands of Jews, polytheists and pagans (Sahih Muslim 1:33 – The Messenger of Allah said: “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat.”
      This command came from Surah 9.29 which commands muhammad and his followers to “fight unbelievers.”)

      2) Having more wives than quran allows –
      Narrated Anas: “The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.”

      3) Beating his child bride –
      Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!” ~ Bukhari vol. 7, # 715
      When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me… he said: ‘Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me?’ I said: ‘Yes.’ He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: ‘Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?’ ~ Sahih Muslim #2127:

      4) Adultery and prostitution (under the guise of ‘temporal marriage’) –

      “Not lawful to you, (O Muhammad), are (any additional) women after (this), nor (is it lawful) for you to exchange them for (other) wives, even if their beauty were to please you, except what your right hand possesses. And ever is Allah over all things, an Observer.” ~ Surah 33:52
      Ibn Al-Tabari says this means “He was forbidden to marry more women, even if he were to divorce any of them and wanted replace her with another, except for those whom his right hand owned (slave women).”
      Jalal-Al-Jalalayn says the same thing. This verse means Allah prevented muhammad from marrying women who he planned to divorce “except those whom his right hand owns, of slavegirls, which is lawful for you.”

      5) And being a false prophet –

      “If he (Muhammad) fabricated against Us any sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand, then We would surely have cut his life-vein (aorta).” ~ Surah 69.46

      “I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” ~ Muhammad. (Al-Tabari 6.111)

      Narrated Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O ‘Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.” ~ Bukhari’s Hadith 5.713”

      no you crosstian idiot. GOD can punish x through DISEASE or other means , you are here to ATTACK the prophet pbuh . God can PUNISH ANYONE ANY TIME HE please I.E the one who ACTUALLY does the CRIME,so JUSTICE is done in ISLAM “DIVINE JUSTICE”

      “Forgiveness is witholding punishment”

      thats why GOD is called MERCIFUL . if GOD always PUNISHED, would HE be merciful?

      .” But if islam is true then there will be millions of unpunished sins at the end of the world. ”

      you are an idiot. i can say that god can , in an instance give every sinner a quick weekend punished like your god gave your pagan saviour weekend punishment and wala every sinner pays for his sins and gets punished but then rewarded. so the deserved got the SPEEDY punishment and ALL sins get punished.

      punishment does not even have to be physical it could be emotional. lol

      ACCORDING TO ISLAM NOT EVERY sin DESERVES HELL and neither is every sin the same as other sins.

      unpunished sins means UNPUNISHED human PERSONS. and it is your religion which PUTS A SINNER like you in heaven EVEN WHEN YOU ARE A SINNER AND CONTINUE TO SIN.

      “Muhammad realised this problem and knew that it is unjust for God to let people into heaven if they have sinned.

      This is why Muhammad taught that Jews and Christians will bear the sins of Muslims:

      Sahih Muslim 6665 — Abu Musa reported that Allah’s Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.”

      Sahih Muslim 6666 — Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.

      Sahih Muslim 6668 — Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. ”

      quote :

      This hadeeth is to be found in Saheeh Muslim (2767), narrated from Abu Moosa (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said: “On the Day of Resurrection, some of the Muslims will come with sins like mountains, but Allaah will forgive them and will put them (the sins) onto the Jews and Christians.” So this hadeeth is saheeh.

      With regard to its meaning, al-Nawawi said in his commentary: “The meaning of this hadeeth is the same as the hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurayrah: “For each person there is a place in Paradise and a place in Hell.” When the believer enters Paradise, his place in Hell is taken over by the kaafir because he deserves that because of his kufr. The meaning of the phrase “your ransom from the Fire” is that you could have entered Hell, but this is your ransom because Allaah has decreed a certain number to fill it; when the kuffaar enter Hell because of their kufr and sins, this is like a ransom for the Muslims. With regard to the report, “On the Day of Resurrection, some of the Muslims will come with sins” – Allaah will forgive the Muslims these sins and will absolve them of them, and He will put the like of those sins onto the Jews and Christians because of their kufr and sins. So they will enter Hell because of their own actions, not because of the sins of the Muslims. This report has to be interpreted in this manner, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

      “And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden” [Faatir 35:18]

      It may be that the meaning is: sins which the kuffaar innovated and initiated, because whoever starts a bad thing will bear a burden of sin like that of each person who does that thing.

      end quote

      ‘U keep mentioning DEEDS, I SAID GOd does not need bloody shedding of jesus to FORGIVE or be MERCIFUL, HE knows we WILL sin thats why He has attribute of forgiving and mercy.’


      For your sake you better hope that allah prays hard enough so that he has the self control to be merciful to you.
      Hadith 216 – Allah said: O Musa! What did your people say? Musa said: O my Lord, You already know they said: Does your Lord pray? Allah said: Tell them My prayer for My servants is that My Mercy should precede My Anger. If it were not so, I would have destroyed them. [Ibn ‘Asakir] (Al-Ahadith Al-Qudsiyyah)”

      ” Is he going to punish you so that he can express his attribute of justice? or is he going to forgive you so he can express his attribute of mercy?”

      you are an idiot.

      pulling bs from answering islam? what does “anger” have to do with “justice” idiot?
      why conflating “anger” with “justice” ?

      prayer? lol

      i find it funny that a blood obsessed crosstian is asking these questions. you say your god is love, but he punishes his “innocent” son LOVINGLY to give out his forgiveness. so you crosstians need to see blood SHEDDING in your gods love, mercy and forgiveness and here you are saying “contradiction” ?

      you are assuming in your question that GOD MUST PUNISH CONTINUALLY for every infraction and you are reading this bs into the hadeeth

      and GOD MUST CONTINUALLY BE MERCIFUL FOR EVERY INFRACTION

      thats not what the narration is saying .

      ‘okay, lets say that the criminal robs and runs away from justice, becomes a christian and changes his ways (DEEDS) ON day of judgement he is informed that his robbery robed a family of life and made them poor ,living in snow. children died .since he swims in the blood of jesus, he will go to heaven, yet where is the justice for the WRONGED? They Still remain wronged
      like pastor raping boy in church and running of to different city and “repenting”
      in islam the crimi nal could be punishes in this life, in grave or hereafter, in your religion criminal going heaven….where is justice?’

      “1) If the robber became a true christian then he would obey what Jesus commanded in John 13 “if you love each other then the whole world will know that you are my disciples” by giving that family what they need to live.”

      what are the signs of a “true” crosstian?
      so a crosstian prophecies
      does miracles
      and thinks he is leading a good life

      he thinks these are signs from his false jesus
      yet his jebus tells him “get away from me”

      so now the crosstian has to become “true” and “obey” even though NO CROSSTIAN is born to obey and is imperfect scum of the earth.

      yhwh calls u guys MENSTRUAL RAGS
      spiritual trash
      your deeds are SHIT, says yhwh

      so what do you mean “obey” ?
      you are INCAPABLE of “obeying”
      no matter how much blood you been sucking from jesus.

      NOTICE HOW YOU filthy crosstians DOWN PLAY THE CRIME and pay LIP SERVICE to sins

      when in really you really don’t care about your gods “justice”


      22) That pastor would not go to heaven because raping is a sin.”

      but jesus BAILED him out! jesus was punished for rape and willingly died “for” the pastors RAPE action. IDIOT!

      ‘ezekiel says DOING RIGHT is what yhwh wants and one DOES NOT HAVE to be sinless to do right. so deeds even in ot can help because it is GOD WHO KNOWS IF DEED IS DONE SINCERELY or not.’


      Being a sinner and still being approved by allah may be true in islam but the Bible says “nothing unholy will ever enter” i.e you must be sinless to make it to heaven.”

      oh so you crosstians CONTINUE to sin on earth EVEN today then your god TRANSFORMS you coz he is “JUST” lol lolo lol o

      r u sinless?


      Think about it this way, if your mum just mopped the floors and you wanted to walk into her house she would check to see if your shoes are clean. If they have mud on them you won’t be allowed into her house. Its the same with us. Sin makes us unclean. God’s house does not have sin in it so you must be sinless to go there.”

      why do you give shit analogies?

      say that the SHOES are BY NATURE producing MUD (original sin) and NO MATTER what you do , you will ALWAYS bring in MUD even a LITTLE bit.

      so if you tried to CLEAN THE mud, and brought in a LITTLE bit because of DAMAGED nature in the shoes, then your mum must be an IDIOT TO EXPECT perfection, right? EVEN if you TRY your best, the mud is STILL THERE, EVEN IF IT IS A LITTLE BIT. so for your god to expext SINLESSNESS IS BS!

      NO crosstian is sinless.
      no matter how much blood they drink


      ‘judges can make LEEWAYS, ALMIGHTY CANT????’

      If your god is like a human judge then of course he will make a ‘leeway’ for you.”

      think about this idiot. is a human JUDGE MORE MERCIFUL than yhwh or is yhwh more merciful than human judge ? is human judge more forgiving than yhwh or yhwh MORE forgiving than human judge ?
      so tell me why ALMIGHTY CAN’T MAKE LEEWAY?

      QUOTE :
      Not surprising that your god is like a human being since the quran tells us that after allah commanded the angels to commit shirk by bowing to adam, it says “allah has two right hands” (surah 38.75) and His 2 hands will perish, so allah will eventually just become a face – “There is no god but He. Everything will perish except His own face.” (28:88)
      This means he is a corporeal being and thus couldn’t have created the universe since he is restricted to space and time. Furthermore if “nothing resembles allah” (Surah 42:11) then the quran contradicts itself by saying that allah has 2 hands and a face which resembles human body parts. Therefore allah is not the true God.”

      what has your nonsensical bs GOT ANYTHING to do with the topic ?


      Would it be right for a human judge to forgive a thief just because he has helped old ladies cross the road in the past?”

      No of course not. Why? Because the judge didn’t punish the crime. Agree?”

      is your god just a judge , idiot? does he just hand out sentences ? your god RAPES krist for the sins of the THIEF and if christ BAILS the theif through getting RAPPED by sins and becomes a “true” crosstian (even though yhwh knows all the deeds are MENSTRUAL RAGS), THEN he will b e FORGIVEN and chris gets a RAPING.

      on the day of JUDGEMENT GOD REVEALS DEEDS OPEN AND CLOSED SMALL AND BIG.
      your idiotic “in the past” doesn’t work here.

      About doing good deeds to earn a spot in heaven you said –
      ‘there u go again saying “in yourself” when it is TRUST IN WHAT ALMIGHTY WANTS.’

      “How many lies have you told in your life? Have you ever stolen anything? Dishonoured your parents? Looked at a woman with lust?

      If you admit that you’ve commited these sins then you haven’t done what the Almighty wants.”

      you have the “holy ghost” in you, when was the last time you watched porn? or dishonoured your neighbors wife” ? if you admit you have commited these sins, then you know…. ACTUALLY if you just saw a GIRL and thought of lust, you have ALREADY sinned, so this proves holy ghost is crosstian BSand u getting into heaven EVEN when u continue to sin. you call your god “just” ?

      thats why there is a thing called “repentance” isn’t that what God wants? while you ask jesus to make cash payments for you and worship your pagan WALL/ jesus, i fall to the ground and ask God “with all my heart and all my soul” DIRECTLY.

      TELL me, have you done that or have you been worshipping being bailed?

      you must be the biggest retarded IDIOT i have ever seen. when yhwh gave his “torah” to the jews, he knew there were liars, THEIVES, lustful people and people who DISHONOURED their parents, yet he still TOLD them what he wants.

      ‘You dont need jesus to receive eternal life. look man, you really think GOd wants you to bring a WALL (jesus) between Himself and the worshipper? WHAT kind of relationship is it THROUGH a WALL? GOd remains on the OTHERSIDE, ISLAM BREAKS THE WALL. Seek Almighty without jesus.’

      “Sure you can get to allah without Jesus. But you can’t get to God without going through Jesus (1Timothy 2:5)”

      ofcourse you can GET to heaven WITHOUT jesus, jesus himself says “why do you call me good, there is NO ONE GOOD BUT GOD ALONE”

      so this means jesus wants you to go DIRECTLY to GOD and seek him coz jesus’ “goodness” is NOT IDENTICAL to GODS goodness. SEEK THE ONE whose GOODNESS is GREATER than jesus’

      Like

  14. stewjo004

    I’m sorry did you just call Shamoun a scholar? Really? Well:

    A. Where and how long did he go to school?
    B. What was his field?
    C. What degrees does he posses?
    D. What peer reviewed papers has he written?
    D. Does he speak Arabic which is the target language of the religion’s most famous works he’s speaking on?

    I can answer these questions for Ehrman so why don’t you tell me that regarding Shamoun? Don’t worry Ill wait because he is not a scholar.

    Moving on…

    I keep answering your points I think you simply have a reading comprehension problem because you keep saying “the Bible” while I am saying the the Bible is a random collage of books not revealed by God and then proceed to show how.

    I didn’t respond to your other points because they were a “shotgun” of unrelated tangents to the initial topic. If you would like to switch the topic to Muhammad(saw) in the jumble of books known as the Bible then please inform me so.

    Finally, I don’t want to accuse you of reading into things but the verses you quoted are unrelated to the passage let’s look at them all together shall we?

    My quote of a potential Torah verse:
    “Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.” (Al Taurat ?:?)

    Moses is reading from something here are your claimed verses:
    “There I will meet with the people of Israel, and it shall be sanctified by my glory.” (Exodus 29:43)

    An object being sanctified by glory is not God being glorified before the people. Also not all of the Children of Israel is near God.

    “…let the priests who come near to the LORD consecrate themselves, lest the LORD break out against them.” (Exodus 19:22)

    Contradicts your previous verse interpretation. Also no mention of God’s glory.

    “At the entrance of the tent of meeting you shall remain day and night for seven days, performing what the LORD has charged, so that you do not die, for so I have been commanded.” (leviticus 8:38)

    Easily your weakest evidence. You’re simply trying to tie it in with the surrounding story.

    Let’s now look at REAL Christian scholarly commentary about the verse I quoted:

    Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers
    (3) Then Moses said . . . This is it that the Lord spake.—Here we have another instance of a reference to a well-known Divine communication made through Moses, WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PREVIOUSLY RECORDED IN THE PENTATEUCH. Moses adduces this declaration to explain to the bereaved father the judgment of God.

    Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
    And Moses said unto Aaron,…. Upon this awful occasion, and in order to quiet and humble him under the mighty hand of God:
    this is it that the Lord spoke, saying; but when he spoke it, and where it is said and recorded, is not so very clear; it might have been said, and YET NOT RECORDED, or the substance of it may be recorded, though not in the express words here delivered; it may refer, as some think, to Exodus 19:22 or else to Exodus 29:43 which seems to come nearest to what follows

    Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:
    The words used by Moses on this occasion are not found elsewhere in the Pentateuch. But the sense is implied…

    Matthew Poole’s Commentary
    This is it that the Lord spake; though the express words be not recorded in Scripture, where only the heads of sermons are contained, yet it is probable they were uttered by Moses in God’s name. Howsoever, the sense and substance of them is in many places.

    Also keep this in mind this unrecorded passage is just a sample of what has been missed. I would again like to quote Dr. Hoffman (notice the “Dr.” on his name that is real scholarship):

    “The Bible you usually read is the ABRIDGED version. Its contents were culled from a much LARGER SELECTION OF HOLY SCRIPTURES when new realities forced religious leaders to discard some of their most cherished and sacred books, resulting in what we NOW CALL THE BIBLE. Some writings were LEFT OUT FOR POLITICAL OR THEOLOGICAL REASONS, others simply because of the physical restrictions of ancient bookmaking technology. At times, the compilers of the Bible SKIPPED INFORMATION that they assumed everyone knew. Some passages were even OMITTED BY ACCIDENT. For these reasons and more, your Bible doesn’t give you a complete picture. […]

    In the end, correct answers to the question, How many books are in the Bible? range from thirty-three to seventy-eight. Yet even with seventy-eight books, MORE MATERIAL WAS LEFT OUT THAN WAS INCLUDED. Additionally, different groups of people order the books of the Bible differently. The modern Jewish order is different from the traditional Jewish order. Christians put the Old Testament books into a third order yet. (For instance, Christians put Daniel near the other famous prophets like Ezekiel and Isaiah, to underscore his centrality. Jews marginalize Daniel by grouping him with the other “writings.”) The Apocrypha, too, appear variously as part of the Old Testament, as an addition to the Old Testament, or—as we just saw—not at all. Underlying all of these differences is the SIMPLE FACT THAT THERE USED TO BE LOTS OF HOLY WRITINGS, and different groups of people compiled different collections of them to form a single book.”

    So an ACTUAL scholar of the Jews just up and said yeah we had a lot more of the Torah than what you guys are seeing.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. stewjo004

    @ QB

    Hey since PK wants to list a comparison of moral codes here (without even realizing in ignorance that things such as Muta marriage are not permissible for us) Do you want to show him some stuff from the Bible? I vote we start with Moses(as) and the little girls from the Midianites given to the Jewish fighters…

    Liked by 1 person

    1. this guy is another anti islamic scum bag! i know you know akhi that he has not come here to learn even after you have explained clearly Qurans position on human RECONSTRUCTED biblical texts which continually get updated by humans

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Pk

      God gave life to the infants so he can take it way if he wants to.

      Concubines were and are illegal. Intercourse with them is a grievous sin.

      God said if the Jews want to have intercourse with their midianite slave women you can’t rape them or you’ll be stoned by the council. To have sexual relations with them you have to wait till their husbands are dead because marriage is broken by death. And you must let them mourn for a month then you can marry them and you can only divorce them if they commit adultery.

      Hey since PK wants to list a comparison of moral codes here (without even realizing in ignorance that things such as Muta marriage are not permissible for us)
      It’s illegal for you but it was OK for your Prophet and his disciples. Just like it’s illegal to have more than 4 wives but it’s ok for your Prophet to have 9.
      Though you’re allowed to take care of orphans its illegal for you guys to adopt just because muhammad wanted to marry his adopted son’s wife.
      But its ok to marry prepubescent girls and beat them if they don’t submit. And its legal for you to drink blood – Qadi Lyad’s Ash-shifa says on page 36: “There was also a time when Malik ibn Sinan drank his blood on the Day of Uhad and locked it up. The Prophet allowed him to do that and then said, “The Fire will not touch you”
      So according to this if you want assurance of salvation you don’t have trust in the atoning death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ. All you have to do is drink some of Muhammad’s blood

      Like

      1. “God gave life to the infants so he can take it way if he wants to.”

        And here comes the excuse for genocide. No, God does not commit oppression and evil acts, nor does He command them. An infant dying from a disease is very different from an infant being deliberately murdered. I’m sorry that you cannot see the difference. This is the unfortunate side affect of believing in the Bible.

        “God said if the Jews want to have intercourse with their midianite slave women you can’t rape them or you’ll be stoned by the council. To have sexual relations with them you have to wait till their husbands are dead because marriage is broken by death. And you must let them mourn for a month then you can marry them and you can only divorce them if they commit adultery.”

        First of all, they weren’t “women”. They were young girls. Second of all, their families had been brutally murdered in front of their eyes. Your attempts to sanitize the brutality is something we have all seen before.

        “It’s illegal for you but it was OK for your Prophet and his disciples. Just like it’s illegal to have more than 4 wives but it’s ok for your Prophet to have 9.
        Though you’re allowed to take care of orphans its illegal for you guys to adopt just because muhammad wanted to marry his adopted son’s wife.
        But its ok to marry prepubescent girls and beat them if they don’t submit. And its legal for you to drink blood – Qadi Lyad’s Ash-shifa says on page 36: “There was also a time when Malik ibn Sinan drank his blood on the Day of Uhad and locked it up. The Prophet allowed him to do that and then said, “The Fire will not touch you”
        So according to this if you want assurance of salvation you don’t have trust in the atoning death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ. All you have to do is drink some of Muhammad’s blood”

        More copying and pasting, huh? Do you ever do any REAL research? This is another weak hadith, but of course, the pseudoscholar Shamoun wouldn’t tell you that. Is Shamoun a scholar of hadiths? I think not.

        https://islamqa.info/en/answers/81692/did-any-of-the-sahaabah-drink-the-blood-of-the-prophet-peace-and-blessings-of-allaah-be-upon-him

        Liked by 1 person

      2. “God gave life to the infants so he can take it way if he wants to.”

        forget infants, even unborn, so yhwhs hebrews approached pregnant women and SLASHED stomachs and SLASHED unborn.
        but if god TAKES LIFE of infants, then WHY DID NOT god tell saul and his terrorist gang to TURN their SWORDS on their OWN infants, since these infants , according to the bible would grow up to do WORSE SINS than the non-jewish nations?

        Like

      3. “God said if the Jews want to have intercourse with their midianite slave women you can’t rape them or you’ll be stoned by the council. To have sexual relations with them you have to wait till their husbands are dead because marriage is broken by death. And you must let them mourn for a month then you can marry them and you can only divorce them if they commit adultery.”

        no, the texts says that if the hebrew rapists is not “satisfied” with his non-jewish pov, he has to let her go. no mention of giving her a certificate of divorce.

        damaged girl will not be resold. who gonna buy damaged pov ?

        Liked by 1 person

    3. Pk

      Stew are the hadith really authentic?

      This one is bukhari so its a valid hadith –
      Narrated Abu Huraira: “Allah’s Apostle said, “If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for the disease). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673)

      That would mean that the special healing wing contains the cure for tuberculosis, anthrax, malaria etc but it doesn’t. So muhammad was wrong. And pathogens don’t only stay on one wing, they are found on both wings. So here’s an example of the scientific innacuracies of the hadith.

      “Each soul earns only on its own account, neither can any bearer of burdens bear someone elses burden.” – Surah 6.164

      “Truly Allah knows what they (those who don’t belive in the Hereafter) hide and what they manifest; surely He does not love the proud. And when it is said to them, what is it that your Lord has revealed? They say: ‘Stories of the ancients;’ That they may BEAR THEIR BURDENS entirely on the day of resurrection AND ALSO of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear” – Qur’an 16:22-25

      Apart from this plain contradiction because in one place it says no bearer of burdens can bear anothers burden then it says the opposite. But whats interesting is that Muhammad disagreed with surah 6.164. Muhammad taught –
      110 Hadith Qudsi—Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.

      But he agreed with the quran where it commands the beating of unsubmissive wives –
      Sahih Muslim #2127: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me… he said: ‘Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me?’ I said: ‘Yes.’ He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: ‘Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?’

      But I think Allah’s Apostle did deal unjustly with people because he was a false prophet.

      When muhammad found out that Satan had put words on his tongue he said –
      I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” ~Muhammad (Al-Tabari 6:111)

      So again muhammad was a false prophet because he spoke words in the name of God which God did not command him to speak and also because he couldn’t tell the difference between revelation from God and revelation from Satan. That also refutes the quran’s claim that no one can produce 10 verses similar to the verses in the quran because satan was easily able to do it.

      Bukhari’s Hadith 5.713 -Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.”

      “And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah), We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta)” (Quran 69:44-46)
      So according to this, Muhammad forged falsities about God and he was killed because of that. So that would make him a false prophet.

      So surely you dont think that the Hadith are authentic…

      Like

      1. stewjo004

        Ready to look stupid again because you don’t know anything about Islam and believe Shamoun to be a scholar and reputable source despite having no formal training and not even speaking the language of Arabic (which is vital because most of our commentary is not translated)?

        Let’s start with one of your claims just to keep things simple here. Any basic student in hadith will tell you Imam Tabari’s history book is not a reputable source. Ta da! Tabari’s history work (you can add Ibn Ishaq into this as well as kuffar like to quote him a lot) is simply a compilation of random unverified stories. His sole intent was to gather any story from anywhere he heard so that information wouldn’t be lost (which we need in order for rulings etc) and to create a chronological order of events. He very much expected later scholars called “Muhadith” (think textual critics) to then comb through his work and verify accordingly. He even says this in his introduction to his work:

        “Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases….Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us.”
        https://www.islamic-awareness.org/polemics/sverses.html

        Just to beat this point home here:

        As a quick note, Nouman made a mistake Imam Tabari has 2 books, a history and a tafseer (commentary). His Qur’anic commentary is superb his history book is where kuffar quote from.

        Sam is aware of this as he’s been refuted for using this source multiple times but ignorant people like you not knowing anything about Islamic sciences or even how to use a reputable source for that matter think: “Oh my gosh this is what Islam teaches? Thank you “Dr.” Shamoun, your “scholarship” has helped me learn about Islam.”

        Would you care to play another round of “How can Sam Shamoun make me look stupid in this life and mislead me to Hell in the Next because I blindly copy him?”

        Liked by 1 person

  16. stewjo004

    Ohhh boy guys this is going to be good okay several claims made here:

    1.Sex with concubines is illegal/ pubescent
    So now, kill all the boys, and kill every woman who has had relations with a man, 18but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man. (Numbers(31:17-18)

    Ahh.. fantastic that we get to kill like 3 birds with 1 stone.

    To begin you actually contradicted yourself regarding sex, but either way we actually have similar rules (can’t rape, stoning, waiting a menstrual cycle) lol so thanks for saying nothing is morally wrong in Islam and doing most of the work for me. Moving on, while there is PLENTY of evidence of propehts having younger wives such as (Jacob(as), David(as), Solomon(as) and the virgin Mary being 12 or younger. This verse shows that prebuscent women were given by Moses(as) to the jewish fighters

    “Taph” the word in Hebrew means 8-11 years old. Here is a literal rendering of the verse:
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/num/31/17/t_conc_148018

    “Taph referred to a child around the ages of 8-11, and literally it means, child clinging to his mother. That makes a lot of sense doesn’t it? That a child that age has a dependence on his or her mother.”
    https://niscu.org.uk/2017/04/03/child-development-in-hebrew/

    From the Expository Dictionary of Bible Words the right-hand column
    “However, all the virgin girls (lit. female children) were to be spared.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=k8GgQqUxPgMC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=age+of+taph&source=bl&ots=EQufuN0oHX&sig=TqxkxFsjbophpPDEqHOzveepjD4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_oaXx94TaAhUCrVkKHfVUAzsQ6AEIYTAI#v=onepage&q=age%20of%20taph&f=false

    Now come on let’s see that good ol hypocrisy that always comes out after this verse is shown.

    2. Muta is legal?
    Muta was allowed for a few days in the context of a battle. It was then abrogated.

    3. Technically the prophet(saw) did not violate the number of wives
    Even though there were reasons that he(saw) was given so many he DID NOT violate the Qur’an prohibition. Why is that?

    “If you’re scared that you might be unfair to the orphans or widows in your care, then marry other women you like in twos, threes, or fours. However, if you’re concerned that you can’t maintain equality and fair judgement among them then marry only one or a concubine. That way you’re more likely to avoid injustice and oppression.” (4:3)

    First off the verse isn’t talking to him it’s talking to Muslim men. Next, (and why kuffar don’t know what they’re talking about) this verse can be read several ways. Yes this was actually debated by early scholars but the prohibition of four wives for Muslim men exist because of hadith not the Qur’an. You can either read the verse:

    Muslims can have 1,2,3,or 4 wives (how most people nowadays read it)

    Or

    Muslims can have 2x3x4= 9 (he (saw) is in)

    Or

    twos(4)x threes(9)x fours(16)= 29 (he(saw) is still in)

    See why it’s good to learn Arabic and go to school it stops you from making stupid arguments.

    4. Muslims can drink blood?
    Lets just refute this stupidity real quick:

    2:172. Oh you who believe! Eat of the good things that I have provided for you, and be grateful to God if it’s Him you have surrendered to in worship.
    2:173. He has only forbidden you dead animal corpses, BLOOD, pork and any animal sacrificed in a name other than God’s. But if one is forced to by necessity, without wanting to eat it, nor purposely overstepping the limits set, then they’ve committed no sin ˹because˺ God is the Most Forgiving and Forever Merciful.

    Moving on, Shamoun “the scholar” cited pg 36 for Ash Shifa by Qadi the narration in question is actually pg.80.
    https://archive.org/details/AshShifaArabicEnglishScanned/page/n95

    Thank you for quoting this as this shows how Shamoun “the scholar”” purposely misleads other people to the Fire. This hadith is fabricated. The actual hadith is in this link but it is no good as there is a break in the chain from a tabieen to a Sahaba meaning it’s useless as evidence and doesn’t require me to speak on it anymore.
    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/81692/did-any-of-the-sahaabah-drink-the-blood-of-the-prophet-peace-and-blessings-of-allaah-be-upon-him

    I mean surely Shamoun “the scholar” knows we have to have complete chain to the Prophet(saw) for evidence in Islam. Why do you think he quoted that to people like you if he’s such a “scholar”? Surely it wasn’t too fool naive people like you who know nothing about their own religion let alone Islam?

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Pk

    A. Where and how long did he go to school?
    B. What was his field?
    C. What degrees does he posses?
    D. What peer reviewed papers has he written?

    Don’t know and I don’t think it matters because you don’t have to have a PhD to interpret the quran. For you to claim that you need 10 years of university study and 6 degrees in religion is a direct argument from authority which is logically fallacious according to https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority

    D. Does he speak Arabic which is the target language of the religion’s most famous works he’s speaking on?
    Yes.

    My quote of a potential Torah verse:
    “Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.” (Al Taurat ?:?)

    Moses is reading from something

    No he’s not. I said leviticus 10:3 is a direct revelation. Go back and read what I actually said. I did not say that he was reading something I said it was a direct revelation from God to him.

    I keep answering your points I think you simply have a reading comprehension problem because you keep saying “the Bible” while I am saying the the Bible is a random collage of books not revealed by God and then proceed to show how.

    Initially I did use the phrase the bible but then you said “stop doing that” so I stopped. Then QB used the phrase “The Quran is a criterion over the Bible” so I said ok well if he’s using the Bible why can’t I. So I started saying ‘the Bible’ again. Go back and read the comments if you don’t believe me.
    Even shabir ally has said “the Quran does speak well of the Bible” of course he then goes on to cite surah 2.75-79 to prove “the jews corrupted it” but the point is Shabir recognises that when the Quran says Torah the Gospel and the Zabur it’s referring to the Bible. (and due to the historicity of Jesus death Shabir says that Jesus was crucified but they took him down before he died.)

    No books were left out of the Bible. The apocrypha means the dubious I.e we don’t trust it because it has verses where God commands people to use magic and where God says it’s ok to pray to Mary and Peter and Paul so its obviously Catholic interpolation. The roman catholics are pretty much the equivalent of your Shia so we don’t regard them as authorities.

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      @ PK

      Down the line:

      1. Samoun is a scholar” (HA!)

      Actually yes you do need to go to school to do tafsir of the Qur’an in Islam (hence why I’m currently in school)

      You’re the one who claimed Shamoun is a scholar and reputable source and he is not as indicated by his lack of education. Also Shamoun does NOT speak Arabic As demonstrated here:
      https://callingchristians.com/2013/01/28/debate-sam-shamoun-vs-ijaz-ahmad/

      An argumentation from authority fallacy does not apply regarding people who are qualified to speak on the subject and there is an adequate degree of agreement among the other experts of the subject in question (this is even discussed in the comment section of your link). Also:

      “It’s important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence.”

      https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

      Shamoun does NOT have a similar understanding (i.e no knowledge in a relevant field) or access to empirical evidence as demonstrated by his lack of knowing Arabic and known usage of weak sources in Islam.

      That’s a common mistake people make with this fallacy. JEDP, however, is a known and accepted theory in regards to OT textual criticism.

      2. Moses(as) and revelation
      When I say “reading” I mean reciting a verse. Yes, this is potentially the revelation he was given from God to him that was part of a larger revelation. This revelation is separate from the biblical canon as the reputable sources I quoted ascertained. There are other instances but this is enough to prove my next point.

      3. The Torah and Gospel are different from the Bible
      I said stop using that to make you understand they are separate entities. The Bible contains parts of the Torah but the Torah contains nothing of the Bible. Further proof of this split can be proven by the existence of the Talmud itself. These oral traditions we’re floating around even before Jesus(as) and Jews viewed them as of equal importance to the written Bible.
      https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812102/jewish/What-is-the-Oral-Torah.htm

      https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3347866/jewish/What-Is-the-Talmud.htm

      Next, I don’t care what Shabbir Ally said he himself is not a scholar and has no formal education. He is simply a person who started to go around and debate.

      4. Apocrypha and Biblical canon
      To begin “apocrypha” means “things that are hidden, secret.” i.e secret knowledge.
      https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/apocrypha/

      Many apocryphal works WERE considered “canon”. That’s why you guys don’t have a unified canon as the Early Church Fathers debated on this and different churches accept different canons like for example the book of Enoch you have no objectifiable reason to say this one or that one is wrong other than a preconceived idea formed before reading. Also btw there are 6 different churches and Catholics are only one of them.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. “Don’t know and I don’t think it matters because you don’t have to have a PhD to interpret the quran. For you to claim that you need 10 years of university study and 6 degrees in religion is a direct argument from authority which is logically fallacious according to https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority

      LOL, of course you would make excuses for Shamoun. A true scholar studies the subject in an academic setting. This specimen has no formal training in Quranic sciences, hadith sciences, Islamic fiqh, tafsir, etc. In contrast, Ehrman is a recognized authority on the New Testament. And of course, it’s not just on that basis that I believe that the Bible is a false book. Rather, Ehrman has provided sufficient evidence for that.

      “D. Does he speak Arabic which is the target language of the religion’s most famous works he’s speaking on?
      Yes. ”

      Does Shamoun really speak Arabic? I find that hard to believe, as I showed in my article on the flat earth.

      “No books were left out of the Bible. The apocrypha means the dubious I.e we don’t trust it because it has verses where God commands people to use magic and where God says it’s ok to pray to Mary and Peter and Paul so its obviously Catholic interpolation. The roman catholics are pretty much the equivalent of your Shia so we don’t regard them as authorities.”

      You must be joking! Again, which book was John quoting when he said this:

      “Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.””

      And what book was Jude quoting when he said this:

      “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.””

      The book of Enoch, right? Is that in your so-called “canon”?

      Liked by 1 person

  18. “ehrman said that luke does not have doctrine of atonement’

    “Maybe Ehrman needs to reread it because Luke has the account of the last supper where Jesus says “this is my blood poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin”

    He provides no evidence as to why these verses were apparently added so I’m going to disagree with him.”

    don’t worry, i’ll provide it for you here, today.

    “And it is striking to note that the verses, as familiar as they are, do not represent Luke’s own understanding of the death of Jesus” – the words of Bart Ehrman
    But he’s wrong. Luke 18 says “Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.””

    QUOTE:
    The prophets wrote concerning the son of man –
    “He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our sins.”
    And again
    “70 weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to put an end to sin and to usher in everlasting righteousness. For messiah will die but not for himself.”
    And again
    “Who shall speak of his generation? for his life was cut off from the earth.”

    none of these texts indicate blood atonement. lets accept your translation. BEING wounded for OUR transgressions does not MEAN “his SHEDDING was an atonement for sins”

    if i say “i want to die for others” am i dying for myself or for others? NONE of this means my death is an ATONEMENT.
    when soldiers DIE for others are they dying for themselves?
    ambiguous unclear verses is what u got to believe in your CRUMBLING pagan doctrine of “fully man and fully god” sacrifice?

    Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins” was the conclusion after saying that this Man Jesus was “put to death” (vs 28) and “was raised from the dead”(vs 33)”

    quote :
    Let it be known to you therefore, my brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you; 39 by this Jesus[g] everyone who believes is set free from all those sins[h] from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. 40 Beware, therefore, that what the prophets said does not happen to you:

    it does not say that the DEATH or the SHEDDING of your jesus BRINGS atonement for sins.

    Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He bought with His own blood.”

    what has this got to do with atonement for sins?

    Like

  19. Pk

    I dont regard roman catholic priests who molest children as authorities. Their books are not authentic. But on the contrary, you regard the hadith as authoritative and you believe Bukhari is a strong hadith. So you would have to admit that stuff was left out of the quran –

    See this guys website for more – http://www.nakedislam.com/allah-prays-muhammad/

    Sahih Muslim 3421—Aisha reported that it had been REVEALED in the Holy Qur’an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated by five sucklings and Allah’s Apostle died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur’an (and recited by the Muslims).

    But these verses aren’t in the Quran we have today. So what happened to them? Aisha tells us what happened to the first verse:

    Sunan ibn Majah 1944—It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

    Sahih al Bukhari Volume 8, pages 209-210,
    Ibn Mardawayh reported that Hudhayfah said: ‘Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?’ I said, ’72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning.

    These verses aren’t found in the quran, so allahs scripture has been corrupted.
    Even though Allah said that he would protect his quran –
    “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it. Sura 5:9

    This means that a simple pet sheep was more powerful than Allah. It was able to corrupt the words of Allah, and Allah could not do a thing to stop it.

    So if anything has missing verses its the quran

    Like

    1. Your blind copying and pasting of random and ignorant websites shows the extent of your research. You have yet to quote one scholarly source. All you can bring are pseudo-scholars who don’t have a clue about interpreting Islamic sources.

      Liked by 1 person

  20. Pk

    John 7.38 draws from the concepts laid out in many OT verses eg Zechariah 14:8, Exodus 17:6, Isaiah 44:3, Isaiah 58:11, Joel 2:23, Joel 3:18; Ezekiel 47:1, Ezekiel 47:12, Zechariah 13:1 and possibly Psalm 114:8

    Book of Enoch doesnt have to be the word of God for Jude to quote from it to be true. Eg i can quote from philosphers about fallacies but that doesnt mean the philosophers are inspired. Similar concept in jude 1.15

    Like

    1. “John 7.38 draws from the concepts laid out in many OT verses eg Zechariah 14:8, Exodus 17:6, Isaiah 44:3, Isaiah 58:11, Joel 2:23, Joel 3:18; Ezekiel 47:1, Ezekiel 47:12, Zechariah 13:1 and possibly Psalm 114:8”

      Again, how convenient. He didn’t say anything about “drawing concepts”. He said the “scripture says” such and such. Why can’t you be consistent? How come when Paul used the word “scripture”, it must mean a direct written source, but now when you are cornered, suddenly the definition changes and it could also simply be “concepts”.

      “Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

      This is a direct quote of something, not “concepts”. Try again.

      “Book of Enoch doesnt have to be the word of God for Jude to quote from it to be true. Eg i can quote from philosphers about fallacies but that doesnt mean the philosophers are inspired. Similar concept in jude 1.15”

      Wow, there is just no consistency from you guys. Why can’t you be honest for once?

      Jude clearly refers to Enoch as inspired. He says that he “prophesied”. And he was expecting the prophecy to come true. He was clearly quoting what he thought was scripture, not some “philosopher”. How many “philosophers” do you rely on for prophecies about the future?

      Liked by 1 person

  21. Pk

    No I am being consistent because Zechariah 14:8, Exodus 17:6, Isaiah 44:3, Isaiah 58:11, Joel 2:23, Joel 3:18; Ezekiel 47:1, Ezekiel 47:12, Zechariah 13:1 and possibly Psalm 114:8 are Scriptures they are written sources…

    I didn’t say Enoch was a philisopher I was just saying that I can quote from someone and they can say something true but it doesn’t mean that they were inspired to say it. Eg the bible doesn’t say the earth rotates but astronomy textbooks do, I can quote them without implying that the textbooks are inspired right?

    Like

    1. Yes, you are being inconsistent. “John” claims that the “scripture says…” and then he gives a direct quote. There is no talk of “concepts”. He is saying that “scripture” says this. There is no such “scripture” which is why you have to scramble and come up with an explanation. If he was quoting sources, it would have made more sense for him to say “the prophets said”. In actual fact, in chapter 6, John quotes Isaiah 54:13 and writes:

      “It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.” (6:45).

      Even here, he provides a direction quote. So why is the other quote somehow just “concepts” and not a direct quote from another source? You are being inconsistent.

      “I didn’t say Enoch was a philisopher I was just saying that I can quote from someone and they can say something true but it doesn’t mean that they were inspired to say it. Eg the bible doesn’t say the earth rotates but astronomy textbooks do, I can quote them without implying that the textbooks are inspired right?”

      Except that I already showed you that Jude regarded Enoch as “inspired”. He saw it as a prophecy which was going to be fulfilled. Again, you are being inconsistent.

      Like

  22. Pk

    Also as a note look at how he’s trying to shotgun unrelated tangents to distract everyone.

    I haven’t presented unrelated tangents, you claimed that the protestant Bible has missing books, I showed you that it doesn’t then I showed you from Bukharis Hadith that the quran has missing verses. How is that unrelated, I responded to your claim and challenged you on the same topic.

    And following that since you claimed the hadith are authentic I’ve quoted multiple lines from them asking whether you think the things written in them are true

    Like

    1. stewjo004

      I’m sorry you don’t go into unrelated tangents? The beauty of writing is we can verify that claim with our conversation:

      A. Pk’s Contention
      The Qur’an verifies the Bible and Islam does not teach that the Torah and Gospel are corrupt. Or else there is a contradiction as it tells Muhammad(saw) to ask them about their Scriptures because he was in doubt (10:94)

      B. Stewjo004’s Response
      1.Quranic verses clearly stating they’re corrupt
      2. The Disciples of Prophet Muhammad(saw) clearly stating so
      3. Scholarly commentary and consensus being corrupt
      4. Scholarly difference of opinion regarding 10:94
      -Talking to two specific men
      -Talking to the pagans because of 10:104 says they were the ones in doubt about Islam not the prophet(saw)

      C. PK’s Cross response
      1. Claim of contradiction because of verse that God’s word can’t be changed. (6:155)
      2. The Torah has has God’s decision. (5:43-44)
      3. Hadith with allegation that the prophet(saw) confirmed the Torah
      4. Translators say Muhammad in the verse
      5. Qur’an 5:69 says jews and Christians are believers (semi tangent here as this unrelated)
      6. Muhammad is inthe Bible

      D. Stew’s rebuttal
      1. Dismisses claim of contradiction because neither makes the other impossible
      2. Argues context does not support this interpretation
      3. Hadith is debated on being weak
      4. Translators are irrelevant
      5. Word usage in 6:155 is God’s Decree as stated in other verses of the Qur’an
      6. Words used in 5:69 don’t mean Christian or Jew in normal usage and refer to the original ones. Also Disciple said another verse “and whoever follows other than Islam will be the failures” supports this

      E. PK response
      1. No new information or refutation of sources attempts to force personal interpretation
      2. Begins a 9 point TANGENT spanning a variety of topics including but not limited to Muhammad’s (saw) death, Salvation, manuscripts, the reliability of hadith etc.)

      So it took you less than 3 back and forths to begin tangents. You then tangent again when responding to QB and the Book of Enoch by mentioning Muta etc.

      I then tried to bring it back and demonstrated the Bible is not what is being referred to by the Qur;’an You then keep saying the Qur’an verifies the Bible over an over again despite repeated explanations that they are separate books. You are now arguing about alleged missing verses in the Qur’an as opposed to addressing the opponent’s argument which is Moses(as) and the children of Israel were using a different book than the Bible.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Pk

        Dismisses claim of contradiction because neither makes the other impossible

        E. PK response
        1. No new information or refutation of sources attempts to force personal interpretation

        Just quickly on 10.94 it doesn’t matter if it’s O muhammad or O pagans the point is Allah refers to the Scriptures before the Quran as the means of verifying the new religion. This would not make sense if the Scriptures were corrupt.

        OK its good you’ve been reading what I’ve been saying but the new information I gave did necessitate a contradiction because some parts say it’s corrupt (2.78) and others say you’ll be punished for not believing and obeying it. These 2 claims cancel each other out. The new info I gave was 5.43 and in response to you saying some parts are corrupt I referred to 2.85

        Also did you read what I said about the decrees? I gave Surah 18.27 “And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.”
        – you said “His words” refer to “His decrees” but there is nothing in the context that prevents me from interpreting “His words” to be “His words in Scripture”

        I then tried to bring it back anddemonstrated the Bible is not what is being referred to by the Qur;’an You then keep saying the Qur’an verifies the Bible over an over again despite repeated explanations that they are separate books. You are now arguing about alleged missing verses in the Qur’an as opposed to addressing the opponent’s argument which is Moses(as) and the children of Israel were using a different book than the Bible.

        Actually remember it was QB who started saying that the Quran is a criterion over the Bible so that’s why I started using the Bible again. The only evidence you gave was that the Quran doesn’t use the word “Bible” since its a collection of books.
        Now with Moses I said it was a direct revelation. I did not say he was reading a different book and we know he wasn’t because when Hilkiah the father of prophet Jeremiah found a copy of the Law of Moses God approved it and didn’t say there was a missing verse about sanctification. So moses and the Jews were not reading a different book.

        Maybe I’m not making myself clear enough and I’m not getting your argument not because I’m deliberately doing that, it’s hard to write so much and give long references. I’d rather communicate verbally, do you guys have hangouts? I can call you tonight and we can speak more clearly there and not misrepresent each other??

        Like

  23. “But if islam is true then there will be millions of unpunished sins at the end of the world. ”

    When God forgives a sin, He can destroy the sin , He does not need to do weekend jobs like roman nailing of jesus.(why would god be like a human father(nut case) who punishes his body parts for every infraction his son does?)

    “father all things are possible for you”

    crosstians like to separate sin from sinner. So God forgives sinner, we will say this automatically destroys the sin and there was no need to “pour it on ‘innocent’ jesus”

    Gods forgiveness was enough and no violent gang thrashing was required.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Pk

      There’s to much to respond to over text my thumbs are giving up, and over hangouts I can prove that I’m not just copying from answeringislam😂
      So just download the app -https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-samsung&ei=In5PXIaRDM6y9QPMjKDgDw&q=google+hangouts+app&oq=google+hangouts+app&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.3..0l5.4390.4939..5306…0.0..0.218.778.0j3j1……0….1.QTv1T_2m7jw

      Then when you’re ready send me a message with your email or phone number and I’ll call you 👍

      Like

    1. stewjo004

      Glad we checked beforehand:

      Eastern Standard Time 8:45pm

      Let me see if I can get this to work and then I’ll try to send a quick message to you.

      Like

      1. Pk

        Sorry didn’t get in touch, can I call my tomorrow morning around 10am? I worked out that will be about 4pm for you guys right

        Like

  24. stewjo004

    @ QB

    Since I have no desire to engage with a dishonest moron, to answer Sam’s arguments:

    1. Notice he infers into the text aka “reading between the lines fallacy” ignores clear cut statements from the Qur’an and Sahaba. This again proves my point like I was arguing about John’s perception of Jesus(as). If you go by clear statements you can see what an author intends to say.

    2 According to The Arabic Versions of the Bible, Reflections on Their Historyand Significance*
    by KENNETH E. BAILEY and HARVEY STAAL. The first printed version of the Arabic gospels was done in Rome in 1591. Again if he wasn’t an idiot he would know most people in Arabia were illiterate. So the reality is during the Prophet’s(saw) time the Christians and Jews were most likely using oral traditions.

    3. The earliest manuscript in Arabic is during the Umayyad Caliphate and is dated 867CE. It’s called Mt Sinai Arabic Codex 151. Warning missionary site:
    https://www.arabicbible.com/codex-151.html

    4. Ibn Ishaq is a historian going by the testimony of the Christians who claimed the gospel of John is from the disciple John. common sense is he wouldn’t see the need to refute especially if it’s just a lexicon.

    5. Here’s a good article on the Arabic bible during Islam’s history.
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/sources/bbbible

    So a quick couple things as I would like to half intelligent conversation I had a couple quick questions:

    Does Guirsame know the lexicon that Ibn Ishaq was reading from? Could be interesting to study the variants

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Apparently, the lectionary has survived into modern times. It seems Guillaume knew of it.

      And yes, Ibn Ishaq was going by Christian sources, which in this case was a lectionary. So there is no reason to make a leap of faith and assume that he accepted the authenticity of the gospels. This is just more proof of Shamoun’s pathetic methodology.

      Like

      1. stewjo004

        Hmmm… very, very interesting. 2 more questions:

        What is the book or paper written by Guillaume as I would like to read it?
        Do you know where I can find the lectionary?

        Like

      1. stewjo004

        @ QB

        I do want to say what happened on blogging theology 2 today was some major b.s. on Paul’s part. That kaffir/ zindeeq was able to insult, berate and spam for days with no penalty whatsoever and the Atlas got in trouble for returning the favor. Like did Paul just miss my conversation with that human shayateen? He avoided talking about his article or my points and he got no warning or anything for purposely going off topic.

        Liked by 1 person

  25. Pk

    @Stew QB and Tony
    I think it’ll be easier to discuss face to face especially since we are disagreeing with each other, let me know what times you are available and we’ll talk over hangouts👍

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Pingback: John 5:2 and the Date of the Fourth Gospel: A Response to a Christian Apologist – The Quran and Bible Blog

  27. Pingback: John 5:2 and the Date of the Fourth Gospel: A Response to a Christian Apologist – Blogging Theology

      1. the bible is a collection of books which christians debated over. today they have heated debates over which variant goes to the SECOND CENTURY . the bible is a evolving and RECONSTRUCTED text, next year, the reconstruction will continue if something is found in old manuscript.

        so the bible is continuously being updated and reconstructed.

        Liked by 2 people

    1. stewjo004

      So I was watching antimajos (a major anti Shia channel) and so the Rafidah mass reported them and got them shut down. So I was thinking why don’t Muslims start mass reporting Answering Isalm and Acts etc?

      Like

      1. stewjo004

        So Antimajos showed how to get a channel banned all you have to do is as follows:

        Step 1. Sign into YouTube

        Step 2. Click this link;

        https://www.youtube.com/reportabuse

        Step 3.

        Select ; Hate Speech Against a Protected Group

        Step 4

        Select; Religious affiliation (examples: Muslims, Christians)

        Step 5

        ENTER CHANNEL URL OF THE USER YOU WANT TO REPORT:

        Step 6

        Select any FIVE videos from the list to report. If you have your own videos on your channel you do not need to report them unless they have commented on your videos.

        Step 7

        In the notes insert the following;

        Hate speech against protected group.

        So if enough of us do this their crap can be removed from YouTube so that misinformation about Islam can stop being spreaded.

        Like

  28. minute silence for all the amalekite children slaughtered by the pagan triune being.

    minute silence for all the children slaughtered by herod. these poor angels saved jesus.

    you can take your silence out of 1 minute or give each 1 min each.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. mr.heathcliff

      salaam bro

      Numbers 21:9
      So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
      2Kings 18:4
      He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.

      That day the LORD exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they stood in awe of him all the days of his life, just as they had stood in awe of Moses.

      not long ago(last year) CON reader was telling the jews how this stuff causes idolatry.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. stewjo004

        @ Tony

        But, but, but Tony according to your Jew friend, Isa(as) saying he is doing a miracle because Allah allowed him to is a gateway to idolatry but Musa(as) creating a magical amulet is in the form of a Bronze Snake after they just got done worshipping a Golden Calf is a- okay.

        Like

  29. stewjo004

    @ QB
    Lying or ignorant I’ll let you be the judge.

    According to the book apparently, that kaffir “Marcion” is the first person to start calling stuff ABOUT Isa(as) the Gospel and the lying “proto-orthodox” adopted it. So this is further proof that they don’t have the Injeel.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. mr.heathcliff

    Quote:

    “A final issue is that, contrary to one of the fundamental premises of the Kuzari argument, the Tanach does not actually describe the tradition as something that the nation faithfully passed down from generation to generation. Quite the opposite: The Tanach describes times of national ignorance of the Torah and God (for example repeatedly throughout the books of Judges, Kings, and Jeremiah), times of leaders allegedly rediscovering the lost Torah or presenting the Torah to an ignorant population (such as in II Kings 22-23, Nehemiah 8, 13:1-3), and times of forceful religious reforms to replace pervasive adherence of Canaanite religion with monotheism (such as in II Kings 23, II Chronicles 15).”

    “How did an entire nation come to be convinced of a mass-revelation to their ancestors? ”

    The narrative wasn’t written until the 5th Century BCE when it was presented as a national origin myth. National origin myths were common in antiquity. Even Rome had them. It wasn’t the kind of thing that could be investigated and they were propagated by royal authority – they were essentially royal propaganda. How did Romans come to believe in Romulus and Remus?

    :::

    Probably the same way that other religious groups become convinced of their own recorded mass revelations. A fully fleshed out story develops over time out of a smaller nucleus of oral traditions.

    end quote

    it is interesting to note that pagan crosstians accuse uthman (ra) of “controlling ” transmission of quran, but APPLYING con-readers “criterion of embarrassment” can tell us that torah was a HEAVILY controlled text which was distorted to hide all the PAGAN FILTH the jews used to get up to .

    HYPOCRISY!

    DOUBLE STANDARDS!

    Liked by 1 person

  31. stewjo004

    @ QB

    I see you and that kaffir Shamoun are at it again. Now I already know I don’t have enough patience to debate their nonsensical, contradictory, no evidence having pagan philosophy but to keep it simple, Deedat is quoting Swaggart’s book (which is why Swaggart didn’t say anything) Find the book their discussing find the quote and boom you win. Deedat isn’t “deceptive” (which is the lie they have to tell themselves because their best scholars got beat by a regular Muslim who got tired of their bs preaching) Swaggart would just be a heretic to be burned at the stake according to them.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. stewjo004

      P.S. I also LOVE the fact that the alleged misuse of “person” is the reason they think we Muslims reject that b.s. doctrine and not the fact it’s illogical and pagan lol.

      Liked by 1 person

  32. I think I found the book. It is actually “The Error of the Jesus Only Doctrine”.

    https://believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=693

    In it, Swaggart said:

    “The Scripture does state there is one God. But the word “one” relates to unity as well as number. I John 5:7 clearly means one in unity, as does St. John 17:11-21. And yet there are three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The three are spoken of as one in number and yet treated individually in Scripture.

    So, while he didn’t use the word “person”, he did say the three [persons] are “one in number”.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. stewjo004

        @ Tony
        NONE of them know what they’re talking about just read this goofy crap:

        “Those who deny that truth place themselves outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy. Having said that, I admit that no one fully understands it. It is a mystery and a paradox. Yet I believe it is true.”

        https://www.christianity.com/god/trinity/god-in-three-persons-a-doctrine-we-barely-understand-11634405.html

        “Paradox” hmm… let’s grab a thesaurus for synonyms of the word:

        absurdity
        ambiguity
        anomaly
        enigma
        inconsistency
        mystery
        oddity
        catch
        error
        mistake
        nonsense
        opposite

        Let’s now read Billy Graham:
        Our finite minds cannot understand or explain this mystery of God, which is nevertheless a fact. We must accept the truths found in the Word of God by faith even though we ourselves cannot comprehend them fully… Theologians have pointed out that if it were not true, the Bible would be unreliable, Christ would not be divine, and His death on the cross would not atone for our sins, being merely the death of a martyr.

        https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/paradox?s=t

        Well, I think we can agree that the smartest thing that man said was the end. What’s funny is these pagans are so upset about Deedat and the persons thing (which my autocorrect insists isn’t even a real word lol) they don’t understand even saying “Persons” is STILL shirk to us as they’re likening Allah to the creation lol. So we can conclude they’re now trying to turn everybody in the “Trinity” into a human. Finally here’s one more knee slapper:

        This reluctance to use terms that sharply divide God is commendable; however, person is itself such a word. Webster defines person as “an individual human being” and “the individual personality of a human being.”

        This is not just a mere quibble over terminology; for throughout the history of trinitarianism, many trinitarians have interpreted the concept of person practically, and even theologically, to mean three beings. For example, the three Cappadocians of the fourth century (Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzus, and Basil of Caesarea) emphasized the threeness of the trinity to the point that they had three personalities. Boethius (c. 480 – c. 524) defined person as an “individual substance with a rational nature.” From medieval times to the present trinitarians have often represented the trinity by a picture of three men, or by a picture of an old man, a young man, and a dove.”

        These are quotes from some famous and some respected Trinitarians explaining “persons” in the Godhead.

        Finis Dake (from the famous Dake’s bible) explains the mysterious trinity this way, “What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal spirit body, personal soul, and personal spirit in the same sense each human being, angel or any other being has his own body, soul, and spirit… Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality… The word God is used either as a singular or a plural word, like sheep.”

        Jimmy Swaggart in 1981 explained it this way, “Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality… Individually each is called God; collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity… Everything that could pertain to God collectively could also apply equally to each member of the Godhead as individuals. However there are some particulars which relate to each individual person of the deity as to position, office, and work that could not be attributed to either of the other members of the Godhead.”

        Carl Brumback, uses the definition of “person” in Webster’s dictionary and does not hesitate to use it either. He tries giving his own definition of, “A person is one who has intellect, sensibility, and will.” He explains it this way, “Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality… Individually each is called God; collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity… Everything that could pertain to God collectively could also apply equally to each member of the Godhead as individuals. However there are some particulars which relate to each individual person of the deity as to position, office, and work that could not be attributed to either of the other members of the Godhead.”

        Looking at what many respected and renown Trinitarians explain, it is obvious that they mean three separate and different beings, with three personalities, three wills, or even three different bodies in the Godhead. They speak of the indivisible one God in “threeness” terms and then conclude it is a mystery unexplainable.

        https://www.christianforums.com/threads/trinitarian-doctrine.6665/

        Liked by 1 person

      2. That’s the way Sheikh Deedat interpreted it, and I can’t blame him. The Christians are confused themselves and can’t seem to explain their trinity without causing chaos. It’s been like 1800 years! What’s taking them so long?!

        Like

  33. mr.heathcliff

    in the world of the pagan christians, contradictions don’t really exist.

    for example, a sofa can be blue, green and pink @ the same time, yet according to these pagans, this would not be contradictory.

    god is 1, but 3 is not numerically identical to ONE, so god is “one what” lol

    so he becomes a “3 in one what god” lol

    in christian religion, contradictions don’t really exist, god can be anything and everything your mind can think of.

    Liked by 1 person

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